Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 11:34 am

can you bring back those posts where Doot called Ignoble Speech on what was essentially direct Sutta and Dhammapada quotes? Id like to post more sutta evidence. In particular;
Bhikkhus, to the bhikkhu practicing the perception of loathing and abiding much in it, the sexual thought keeps away, it shrinks and rolls away.
id like to print that conversation and frame it to put it on my wall and use it for future reference.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 30, 2018 12:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:34 am
can you bring back those posts where Doot called Ignoble Speech on what was essentially direct Sutta and Dhammapada quotes? Id like to post more sutta evidence. In particular;
Bhikkhus, to the bhikkhu practicing the perception of loathing and abiding much in it, the sexual thought keeps away, it shrinks and rolls away.
id like to print that conversation and frame it to put it on my wall and use it for future reference.
Sorry, you'll have to forgo that pleasure. Similarly, any more posts where you simply engage in points-scoring without any other purpose will be removed.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 1:29 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:25 am
SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
All I'm saying is that if we are talking about a simple "passing of fluids" that is one thing, and I fully, 100% agree that it is better than intercourse, but if you are talking about doing so with porn, do not even try compare the two. You shouldn't even try to sell that vacuum cleaner to yourself because it is a nasty case of self-deception.
sutta evidence or demonstrate your reasoning at least
Do you really think you are cultivating any less lust looking and pictures/videos of hundreds of different people in sexual situations than you would be in a healthy sexual relationship? Because that is what matters here: what is this act doing to desire and lust?

You can try and fall back on Vinaya rules or the suttas to justify it, but then there is sīlabbata-parāmāsa to contend with. If adherence to the letter of the law is all you are concerned with, there are going to be all sorts of bad things that you can justify if you cannot find where it says it is explicitly prohibited. Sure, as lay people these things are not prohibited per se, but are they wholesome?

Instead you should look at what these acts amount to in terms of habits and tendencies - if they are increasing your lust or decreasing it - and just how much those things are dependent upon for your emotional balance. Because yeah, emotional balance, i.e. "management of suffering" is necessary to a degree, but it is not the goal. You're not an arahat if you've mastered avoiding suffering - you're an arahat when you've destroyed the possibility of it ever arising again.

I just don't think it is a wise course to assume porn is somehow better, because in the end you are still a slave to desires. Nothing has changed in that regard. You may have hit a self-imposed standard of avoiding intercourse, but have you gotten any further away from sensuality? I know the answer and so do you.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 1:32 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:29 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:25 am
SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
All I'm saying is that if we are talking about a simple "passing of fluids" that is one thing, and I fully, 100% agree that it is better than intercourse, but if you are talking about doing so with porn, do not even try compare the two. You shouldn't even try to sell that vacuum cleaner to yourself because it is a nasty case of self-deception.
sutta evidence or demonstrate your reasoning at least
Do you really think you are cultivating any less lust looking and pictures/videos of hundreds of different people in sexual situations than you would be in a healthy sexual relationship? Because that is what matters here: what is this act doing to desire and lust?

You can try and fall back on Vinaya rules or the suttas to justify it, but then there is sīlabbata-parāmāsa to contend with. If adherence to the letter of the law is all you are concerned with, there are going to be all sorts of bad things that you can justify if you cannot find where it says it is explicitly prohibited. Sure, as lay people these things are not prohibited per se, but are they wholesome?

Instead you should look at what these acts amount to in terms of habits and tendencies - if they are increasing your lust or decreasing it - and just how much those things are dependent upon for your emotional balance. Because yeah, emotional balance, i.e. "management of suffering" is necessary to a degree, but it is not the goal. You're not an arahat if you've mastered avoiding suffering - you're an arahat when you've destroyed the possibility of it ever arising again.

I just don't think it is a wise course to assume porn is somehow better, because in the end you are still a slave to desires. Nothing has changed in that regard. You may have hit a self-imposed standard of avoiding intercourse, but have you gotten any further away from sensuality? I know the answer and so do you.
Just as i thought, zero evidence was provided.
You speaking of silabbata-paramasa, have you attained stream entry perhaps? It would be good if you attain it before speaking of it next time.
I will fall back on the sutta and vinaya over your reasoning anytime.
You do not know me lol.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 1:34 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:32 pm
I will fall back on the sutta and vinaya over your reasoning anytime.
The suttas don't say to overcome sensuality?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 1:36 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:34 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:32 pm
I will fall back on the sutta and vinaya over your reasoning anytime.
The suttas don't say to overcome sensuality?
We are discussing whether or not masturabtion with porn is a greater impediment to development than sexual intercourse.
You have no evidence, you can think what you want.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed May 30, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 1:49 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:36 pm
We are discussing whether or not masturabtion with porn is a greater impediment to development than sexual intercourse.
You have no evidence, you can think what you want. I don't really care about your opinion. If i want to disrobe i will ask you how to do it.
Fair enough. If the suttas not stating it explicitly is enough for you justify that it is less of an impediment then go for it. Let me know how it works out. Also when you talk of celibacy and being single in the future I'll have a better picture of what that means for you.

Again, I don't know why your getting pissed. In the end we should praise the overcoming of lust and sensuality in general instead of trying to defend how we deal with it being present. We should be honest with ourselves about what our actions are doing for our development. Are we defeating it or condoning it?

If you don't want to go there then I guess we won't.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 1:53 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:49 pm
I think you are confusing me with Dhammarakkhito in what regards definitions of celibacy. If you want to know about my masturbation habits or lack of thereof you can just ask instead of speculating.

Nor am i condoning anything, i spoke in praise of Bramhacariya and in praise of Going Forth for the sake of abandoning all fetters.

I just do not think that one can say that Masturbation whilst watching porn is worse than Sex from the point of view of the Dhamma.
I asked you to demonstrate your reasoning for why this is the case and all you come up with is reasons for why Masturbation is bad in first place, no shit Sherlock, but this is not the point we are debating.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 3:28 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:53 pm
I asked you to demonstrate your reasoning for why this is the case and all you come up with is reasons for why Masturbation is bad in first place, no shit Sherlock, but this is not the point we are debating.
I did yesterday, Watson, and then you asked for sutta references and an additional explanation. Is this not a clear position?
SDC wrote:A serious porn habit is cultivating the same levels of lust as one would be in a healthy relationship and in some cases a porn habit is more severe based on ease of availability and the ability to tailor to one's preferences . Whereas, when in a relationship, one has to be patient and respectful of each other's needs and desires and can't "get it" whenever they please.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 3:35 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:28 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:53 pm
I asked you to demonstrate your reasoning for why this is the case and all you come up with is reasons for why Masturbation is bad in first place, no shit Sherlock, but this is not the point we are debating.
I did yesterday, Watson, and then you asked for sutta references and an additional explanation. Is this not a clear position?
SDC wrote:A serious porn habit is cultivating the same levels of lust as one would be in a healthy relationship and in some cases a porn habit is more severe based on ease of availability and the ability to tailor to one's preferences . Whereas, when in a relationship, one has to be patient and respectful of each other's needs and desires and can't "get it" whenever they please.
This is just your opinion. If the ease of access and ability to tailor to one's preference would be the deciding factor then masturbation without porn would be the worst of the two, because fantasy and recall are readily available to anybody at any given time. Afaik there is no way to demonstrate that papanca-sankhara arisen from objectification of the visual data is worse than objectification of the mental data.

Therefore deciding factor is the presence of another being, it just complicates things a lot more.
SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
All I'm saying is that if we are talking about a simple "passing of fluids" that is one thing, and I fully, 100% agree that it is better than intercourse
People don't merely "pass fluids" people do it for pleasure, the physical act can be accompanied by mental erotic activity or even visually stimulating data. However in case of masturbation one is not doing anything to another being, one is neither deriving pleasure from another nor fascilitating indulgence in sensual pleasure for another.

If anything the sexual intercourse is the next step from PMO(porn, masturbation, orgasm) as is evident by people who graduate from watching tranny porn to seeking out a tranny prostitute ie.

As a matter of fact doing it to another being is quite perverse, how can one wish metta and wish for another to attain the highest, the arahantship while at same time be willing to encourage sexual activity and even fascilitate it... That is taking immediate advantage of their delusion for sexual gratification, in a sense it is that bad...
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed May 30, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 3:58 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:35 pm
SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:28 pm

I did yesterday, Watson, and then you asked for sutta references and an additional explanation. Is this not a clear position?
SDC wrote:A serious porn habit is cultivating the same levels of lust as one would be in a healthy relationship and in some cases a porn habit is more severe based on ease of availability and the ability to tailor to one's preferences . Whereas, when in a relationship, one has to be patient and respectful of each other's needs and desires and can't "get it" whenever they please.
This is just your opinion. If the ease of access and ability to tailor to one's preference would be the deciding factor then masturbation without porn would be the worst of the two, because fantasy and recall are readily available to anybody at any given time. Afaik there is no way to demonstrate that papanca-sankhara arisen from objectification of the visual data is worse than objectification of the mental data.
Of course it is my opinion, but it is also an assessment based on my reading of the suttas and my own experience. If you think you aren't cultivating the same degree of lust, that is your opinion. Time will tell which is worse or if they are the sane or if it just depends on the individual.

Sorry to have gotten you hot yet again.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 4:02 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:58 pm
Sorry to have gotten you hot yet again.
It is not you, it was Doot who annoyed me, i am sorry i lashed out on you. Well maybe you got me hot a bit too.
It means little and i keep apologizing after lashing out on people but I apologize anyway, trust me i do feel bad and regret things i say.
I do get annoyed and offended by things people say tho.

I added to the post above, quite important point regarding the other being.

Id like us all to get along and be all polite but it is not possible because we are not Arahants. That is kind of the reality of it and it is going to suck to that extent.

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Re: Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by binocular » Wed May 30, 2018 5:24 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
I find it interesting that you are both pushing a monastic position yet neither of you is ordained (or ever have been). I know I have asked this before, but what is the point of trying to monastify the laity when the monastic tradition is alive and well? Why not just encourage people to ordain? Or if you are so sure it is the best way to live then why not just ordain and then encourage others from that point of view?

You don't have to answer, but it is really something to think about.
Those who can't, teach. :tongue:

- - -
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm
These two newbies are funny to me; how they are newbies to Buddhism but develop such dogmatic ideas about things they have not experienced.
Newcomer fundamentalism seems to be common, in various religions. When they're new, many people still know everything.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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rightviewftw
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Re: Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 6:01 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 5:24 pm
When they're new, many people still know everything.
Though a fool, through all his life, associates with a wise man, he no more understands the Dhamma than a spoon (tastes) the flavour of soup.

Though an intelligent person, associates with a wise man for only a moment, he quickly understands the Dhamma as the tongue (tastes) the flavour of soup.
i don't make this up

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