Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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SDC
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Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm

rightviewftw wrote: ...
Dhammarakkhito wrote: ...
I find it interesting that you are both pushing a monastic position yet neither of you is ordained (or ever have been). I know I have asked this before, but what is the point of trying to monastify the laity when the monastic tradition is alive and well? Why not just encourage people to ordain? Or if you are so sure it is the best way to live then why not just ordain and then encourage others from that point of view?

You don't have to answer, but it is really something to think about.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 2:50 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
You don't have to answer, but it is really something to think about.
you can keep thinking about it

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 3:06 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:50 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
You don't have to answer, but it is really something to think about.
you can keep thinking about it
Clearly I meant you should be thinking about it --- but please carry on telling people how great monasticism as you continue to live the lay life.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 3:12 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:50 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
You don't have to answer, but it is really something to think about.
you can keep thinking about it
Clearly I meant you should be thinking about it --- but please carry on telling people how great monasticism as you continue to live the lay life.
id tell you what you can think about but you are a mod;)

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:12 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:50 pm

you can keep thinking about it
Clearly I meant you should be thinking about it --- but please carry on telling people how great monasticism as you continue to live the lay life.
id tell you what you can think about but you are a mod;)
How cute...sorry that you don't want to be questioned or held accountable for the things you say. Carry on doing it then...

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 3:23 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:12 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:06 pm


Clearly I meant you should be thinking about it --- but please carry on telling people how great monasticism as you continue to live the lay life.
id tell you what you can think about but you are a mod;)
How cute...sorry that you don't want to be questioned or held accountable for the things you say. Carry on doing it then...
like you are entitled to asking questions or rather like i am obligated to answering you lol
as a matter of fact i can inform that i hold you in contempt

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 3:30 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:23 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:12 pm


id tell you what you can think about but you are a mod;)
How cute...sorry that you don't want to be questioned or held accountable for the things you say. Carry on doing it then...
like you are entitled to asking questions or rather like i am obligated to answering you lol
as a matter of fact i can inform that i hold you in contempt
Ok

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 28, 2018 7:03 pm

sdc, that is silly
quoting dn 16 is monastifying the lay community?
really?
i thought i talked about why i dont ordain, but im taking care of my mom. the suttas do say to ordain, and they do recommend celibacy for householders. why encourage the bare minimum, or why deride me for encouraging more?
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 7:27 pm

these allegations that SDC keeps thinking about have been adressed, as he himself acknowledges, by several people viewtopic.php?f=56&t=31283. Afaik he never followed up with any questions after having received his answer from me.
Why do you ask things that you know the answer to idk.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:03 pm
sdc, that is silly
quoting dn 16 is monastifying the lay community?
really?
i thought i talked about why i dont ordain, but im taking care of my mom. the suttas do say to ordain, and they do recommend celibacy for householders. why encourage the bare minimum, or why deride me for encouraging more?
I did not know about your mom and I apologize for sounding so critical.

I am not trying encourage a bare minimum, but I think it is most responsible to advise others from understood positions of experience. So if you are an experienced celibate lay disciple who is a follower of the 8 precepts then I guess you are qualified. If you aren't, obviously you can still encourage more but keep in mind that not every lay person is the same, and blanket advice about celibacy is not always going to help the reader. A little finesse goes a long way to bringing someone away from sensuality and considering how much you point the way to a monastic life, I thought you should keep it in mind if you want people to heed your words. I meant no offense.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 7:50 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:27 pm
these allegations that SDC keeps thinking about have been adressed, as he himself acknowledges, by several people viewtopic.php?f=56&t=31283. Afaik he never followed up with any questions after having received his answer from me.
Why do you ask things that you know the answer to idk.
I do remember that thread, but do not remember you giving a specific answer, nor did I remember that piece about Dhammarakitto's mother. I honestly did not think you were going to be so offended that I raise the issue again, but like I broached above, there is a large space between sensuality and celibacy, and that space is different for everybody. I don't think the best advice should be to tell people to live like a monastic every time. Sometimes people need more practical advice to get them to a better position where they would then be able to see an 8 precept life as best.

In this thread, for instance, the member is asking about break up advice, and yeah relationships in general are a cause for misery, but if you are going to tell someone to opt for a 8 precept life it would probably help if you were doing the same thing and had experience with it before you go suggesting it to someone else. Is that so unreasonable for me to think so?

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 8:13 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:50 pm
Is that so unreasonable for me to think so?
I think it is unreasonable to assume that a householder and me in particular would not know what i am talking about and am not qualified to advocate monasticism. There is absolutely no way you can know how prepared i am and if i would handle being ordained or how likely i am to disrobe, that information is simply beyond your scope of knowing.

Furthermore i have answered every point previously;
Why i am not ordained, i have talked about this plenty of times and in that thread of yours in particular;
viewtopic.php?t=31283#p459321
Trust me in that if i could, id be ordained, not rotting away here. It is causing me a lot of stress not being able to train in a supportive enviroment and having to endure the lay-state as it is. There is 1 monastery in my country and they required me to allign myself, i am fixed in view i cannot do.
I also have debt complicating things so it is not like i am financially independent and not subject to circumstances.
I have also adressed why and to what degree i would advocate monastifying one's life and pursuit of Brahmacariya&Dhammacariya from the perspective of Dhamma and Socio-Economics.

I found it quite offensive the way you brought it up in this thread again, saying basically that i have no idea what i am talking about and have no right to advocate monasticism being neither ordained nor disrobed. I dismissed your initial comment because it is litterally a repeat question.

Not being able to ordain is also something that causes me a lot of grief, so it is just a cheap blow to use it against me in this fashion as i see it.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon May 28, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by mikenz66 » Mon May 28, 2018 8:14 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:50 pm
In this thread, for instance, the member is asking about break up advice, and yeah relationships in general are a cause for misery, but if you are going to tell someone to opt for a 8 precept life it would probably help if you were doing the same thing and had experience with it before you go suggesting it to someone else. Is that so unreasonable for me to think so?
I would certainly applaud those pursuing a quiet, productive, possibly celibate, life, perhaps looking after aging parents.

The caution I would have (I've seen this in some friends) is that withdrawal from everyday life is not the same as monastic training, lacking the companionship and discipline that comes with that commitment. There are various suttas where the Buddha points out that ignoring the basics and going straight to:
A secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw.
is unlikely to be productive.

I collected a couple of suttas about this over here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31978&p=473913#p473913
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:38 pm
I think it's worth reflecting that the training that leads up to the final stages of insight is communal, with training rules set out in the Vinaya in great detail: ...
:heart:
Mike

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 8:24 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:13 pm
I found it quite offensive the way you brought it up in this thread again, saying basically that i have no idea what i am talking about and have no right to advocate monasticism being neither ordained nor disrobed. I dismissed your initial comment because it is litterally a repeat question.

Not being able to ordain is also something that causes me a lot of grief, so it is just a cheap blow to use it against me in this fashion as i see it.
I never said you had no idea what you were talking about - like you said, it is impossible for me to know what your level of experience is. What I am saying is, that if you are going to give that advice, it would be good if you did have the experience with the things you are encouraging others to pursue.

I am very sorry about your issues with ordaining, I did not bring this up again to cause you grief. I really do mean that.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
I find it interesting that you are both pushing a monastic position yet neither of you is ordained (or ever have been).
Sometimes people new to Buddhism develop dogmatic ideas about things they have not experienced. Monasticism is not easy. Solitude, sexual desire & fear of emptiness drives many people crazy. Many disrobe.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:03 pm
the suttas do say to ordain, and they do recommend celibacy for householders. why encourage the bare minimum, or why deride me for encouraging more?
I disagree with your conclusions. It depends on individual circumstance.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:53 pm
Luckily it seems like i will be able to ordain in not so distant future and good things are worth waiting for they say.
Do keep in mind that to ordain is to also be subject to public scrutiny (MN 95).
Last edited by mikenz66 on Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:15 am, edited 7 times in total.
Reason: Removal of personal attacks. mikenz66

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