Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 pm

MGTOW use the word gynocentric to describe conditions that favor women to the detriment of men, and are opposed to such circumstances.[8][6] MGTOW believe that there is a systemic gynocentric bias against men including double standards in gender roles, bias against men in family courts, lack of concern for men falsely accused of rape and lack of consequences for their accusers.[9]
Views on heterosexual relationships

According to the columnist Martin Daubney, members of the MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis.[10] Jeremy Nicholson, writing for Psychology Today, similarly described MGTOW as "guys who have been frustrated and punished to the point that they see no further incentive to relate [to dating] [...], they focus on making themselves happy".[11] Kay Hymowitz has stated that some self-identified MGTOW express discontent because they see women as hypergamous and manipulative.[12] The Business Insider reporter Dylan Love wrote a "fully-realized MGTOW (there are levels to it) is someone who shuns all relationships with women, short-term, long-term, romantic, and otherwise. He eventually shuns society as a whole."[13] Some MGTOW have many short-term casual relationships or engage in sex with prostitutes.[9] Celibacy, however, is also an option. A MGTOW that chooses celibacy over sex and relationships is said to be "going monk"[14] and some embrace maintaining their virginity.[15][16]
nice description i think
mgtows are on to something but they demonize women and think men are awesome as they already are pretty much.
It is a pretty big community and growing and meditation is commonly accepted as good for u among those people. The nofap community probably meditates more than this forum. They also study everything on addiction there and it is quite intense really a lot of people fighting the good fight.
everybody there too, christian, muslim the atheist, all ages and has women too.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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No_Mind
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:56 pm

-- post deleted --
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 pm
...
Interesting stuff, but it does look as if there are possible pitfalls for one who approaches it unwisely. Thanks for the info, rightviewftw.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:22 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:10 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 pm
...
Interesting stuff, but it does look as if there are possible pitfalls for one who approaches it unwisely. Thanks for the info, rightviewftw.
when people start to perceive the dangers it is often when they have gone too far due to not having good teaching like the one about rules and living a normal life becomes impossible due to what is perceived as normal so people see that it does not make sense and either kill themselves or try to figure it out i think talking about good people here, consciensciouss ones, one could say.

Many pitfalls for sure but is in general mostly science as far research goes but the research is often inconclusive and people rationalize and expound on all kind of evidence yes. There is even a stage called "red pill rage" that one undergoes upon familiarizing oneself with the research and statements.
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manas
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by manas » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:50 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:10 pm
...
A Buddhist man involved with a non-Buddhist can this way get pleasures that he couldn't get if he were with a Buddhist; and he can get away with it, as the non-Buddhist is the one who shoulders the risks and responsibilities (that a Buddhist would be unwilling to).
What 'risks'? Since when is vegetarianism a precept in Theravada Buddhism? Since when is a lay Buddhist not allowed to enjoy lawful, licit sex within his marriage or relationship? What difference does it make who initiates these things, since neither break any of the five precepts?
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:10 pm
What exactly are these things that non-Buddhist wives do that are so risky? I'd like to know, as I wouldn't want to expose my wife to any unnecessary risks.
Then educate yourself about the side effects of hormonal contraceptives and abortions. And maybe try to imagine what it's like to live in constant fear of unwanted pregnancy, and in the knowledge that your supposedly loving husband/partner will leave you anytime should you refuse to stop taking those risks upon yourself.

- - -
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 pm
It is non-self, if Buddhists upon hearing the Dhamma could press a button to renounce and try out Nibbana, they would trust me. Most go on conviction more or less so and have doubt, unlike christians Buddhists are open about this..
I'm not thinking of anything of this kind.

It's doubtful that back in the Buddha's time, Buddhist lay men had the same principles for engaging in "romantic" or sexual relationships as men, Buddhist or not, ordinarily do nowadays.

If a woman nowadays wants to have a relationship with a man, Buddhist or not, she probably has to accept his terms, which are something like "You must have sex with me, and you must not produce children if I don't want them, or I will not love you and I will leave you". And this is viewed as so normal that barely anyone ever questions it. Women are taught to accept that from early on. And it's tabooed; bring it up, and people pretend it's not there.
The woman has to risk health and life (due to using hormonal contraceptives and possibly having abortions), and all this just to have a relationship at all. And this is then called "love".

The monks who toe the party line that "Pursuing sensual desires is bad, but lay people can do it, as long as they do it within bounds" aren't helping, because with that party line, they effectively distract from the more painful issues.


- - -
manas wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:50 pm
Since when is a lay Buddhist not allowed to enjoy lawful, licit sex within his marriage or relationship? What difference does it make who initiates these things, since neither break any of the five precepts?
Keeping the third precept while simultaneously breaking the first ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:46 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:10 pm
What exactly are these things that non-Buddhist wives do that are so risky? I'd like to know, as I wouldn't want to expose my wife to any unnecessary risks.
Then educate yourself about the side effects of hormonal contraceptives and abortions. And maybe try to imagine what it's like to live in constant fear of unwanted pregnancy, and in the knowledge that your supposedly loving husband/partner will leave you anytime should you refuse to stop taking those risks upon yourself.
I'm quite well-informed about these things, thanks, and have a more sanguine attitude to these things than you do. But leaving that aside, how is the situation different for Buddhist and non-Buddhist wives? My non-Buddhist wife doesn't live in such "constant fear", and I can imagine Buddhist wives doing so. So something seems to have gone awry with your reasoning here.

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:39 pm

I'm fortunate not to have any romantic relationships, for ten years. I renounced it forever. I have more time working on my other fetters.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:09 am

With stillness established in all your being and throughout all your activities, you will locate other beings that are quite close to the same stillness among all of those "normal" sleep walkers around you. Don't bother with those asleep, go for those closest to sanity of a still heart, and there you will be able to find any kind of dhamma companion if that is what you really think you need.

So if you like to find a woman, look for her still heart, and there you two go!

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 pm
I'm quite well-informed about these things, thanks, and have a more sanguine attitude to these things than you do. But leaving that aside, how is the situation different for Buddhist and non-Buddhist wives?
A Buddhist wife (depending how serious she is about her devotion to the Triple Gem!) is not as likely to give in to the terms of the relationship as set by modern society. And unlike secular women, the Buddhist wife also has a whole system of moral reasoning behind her refusal.

Of course, this is where some Buddhist men chip in with the whole no-self thing. Oddly enough, why don't they refer to no-self when it comes to their groins.
My non-Buddhist wife doesn't live in such "constant fear", and I can imagine Buddhist wives doing so. So something seems to have gone awry with your reasoning here.
Some women don't mind getting pregnant; some don't mind having abortions; and some are convinced that their contraceptives will always work 100%. I'm not one of those women, so I can't relate.

And if my reasoning seems awry, it's because I'm trying to stay within the ToS, before I say something more specific, but also harsh.

I do know what awaits me if I were to pursue a relationship with a man, whether he is Buddhist or not. As one Buddhist so clearly explained to me, "No sex, no relationship". And another one made told me that if I don't want to have sex (on his terms), then I should convert to Mahayana and ordain to become a nun.
Maybe it was just my bad luck that those two were such jerks. But in reality, the vast majority of men have exactly the same expectations, the same criteria about relationships (except maybe for some very strict Hasidic Jews and a few others). Some men just happen to be more polite than others. This may change the surface of the relationship, but not its nature.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:09 pm

As i see it people team up to supposedly be better off, which does make sense where co-operation has some value.

I think it is quite interesting to reflect on how both want different things essentially and what a trade of perceived value it is.

Sexual market value, is somewhat real, sexuality has no inherent value and inequality in that market is very high and varied across the globe.
However that is one of the services being traded and/or given in a relationship.

I think it is clear that as long as one has longing for a partner one is asking for trouble as it will surely come at a high price.

Sexuality has no interensic value and it is sort of a mental illness really.

I do not think it is optimal way to live but as far as relationships go there are clearly levels to it and i assume that in some relationships both parties are developing themselves and it is not a hindrance to high attainments.

It is still a lot better to make Non-Return and be done with it well and proper.

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:33 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:09 pm
I think it is clear that as long as one has longing for a partner one is asking for trouble as it will surely come at a high price.
Of course. But why is only the woman the one who potentially has to pay such a high price?
And why is such an arrangement of things so widely accepted, even among Buddhists?
as far as relationships go there are clearly levels to it and i assume that in some relationships both parties are developing themselves and it is not a hindrance to high attainments.
How is a woman supposed to come to terms with possibly having to have abortions? How does spiritual development and the Dhamma play into this?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:01 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:33 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:09 pm
I think it is clear that as long as one has longing for a partner one is asking for trouble as it will surely come at a high price.
Of course. But why is only the woman the one who potentially has to pay such a high price?
And why is such an arrangement of things so widely accepted, even among Buddhists?
Men are paying for it as well and i do not think we have to go into details about how men are getting crushed in their own way. We can let the suicide rates speak for themselves on this one.

I think it is fair to say that it is not really working out for any gender as it is right now and pointing fingers is hardly appropriate. As i see it the fault is not with men or the wemen but the human condition.

I look at men around me and feel sorry for the women dating them but then i look at the women and feel sorry for the men.

As i look at it men are far from this overclass that you paint them to be. As for abortion flip the situation to where husband wants the baby and the female wants to abort, what do you tell the guy.

If men were all that powerful they could tell the woman to not kill his child right, well this is not the case in most western countries a man has no say in this matter.

I could say a lot on women, 3rd wave feminism, hypergamy, family courts, how marriage was historically not for everyone and what many of the not wife-material women were doing for a living. For men i can also say many bad things but you are doing a good job at it, i mostly do agree that it is how it is for many people in that many people are sub-human in the way they relate to eachother, especially where sex is involved it gets very dark very quickly for both genders really.

My point is that it is a rigged game and it is best to avoid the danger.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 pm
A Buddhist wife (depending how serious she is about her devotion to the Triple Gem!) is not as likely to give in to the terms of the relationship as set by modern society. And unlike secular women, the Buddhist wife also has a whole system of moral reasoning behind her refusal.
There is nothing in the Buddha's teaching that proscribes any happiness arising from marriage and relationships that is in line with keeping the precepts, therefore there is nothing to "give in" to. It's possible for Buddhist and non-Buddhist women alike to be oppressed by morally obtuse husbands, and possible for them to achieve happiness in both settings.
Of course, this is where some Buddhist men chip in with the whole no-self thing. Oddly enough, why don't they refer to no-self when it comes to their groins.
You've lost me here, I'm afraid. If it's a well-known phenomenon, then please provide some kind of evidence. If it's just your personal experience, then OK, but let's not pretend that it's anything more significant than that.
Some women don't mind getting pregnant; some don't mind having abortions; and some are convinced that their contraceptives will always work 100%. I'm not one of those women, so I can't relate.


Again, this is a general point about the exigencies of female sexuality. As Buddhist and non-Buddhist women alike have sexual relationships, you need to say why Buddhist women are any different in this respect. Those unwillingly married to brutes will, like their non-Buddhist counterparts, have a tough time. Those willingly married in good relationships will, like their non-Buddhist counterparts, be happier. The difference is in the relationship, not in the religion. Or if it is, you haven't proved it.
I do know what awaits me if I were to pursue a relationship with a man, whether he is Buddhist or not. As one Buddhist so clearly explained to me, "No sex, no relationship".
I assume we are talking about sexual relationships here (what with all the foregoing stuff about contraception and abortion...). So this man clearly shows himself to be intelligent enough to understand a simple tautology.

The rest of your post is, once more, a generalised critique of men, but there is still nothing in it to justify your earlier point about Buddhist wives being somehow different because of their Buddhism.

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Nwad
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Nwad » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:45 am

About OP:
Lay people improuve their practice with monk's rules, as monks improve their practice with dhutanga rules. All that is for great benefit for progress and for the peace of mind... Why someone should stop to practice "a lay dhutanga" if its brings him joy and peace?

To Binocular:
Dear Binocular, iam man but i fully understand and support you... Sex is a waste of time, dirty, violent, animal, low, childish, blind activity which brings no pleasure at all... Personaly i have more pleadure by going pee! With my beautifull exgirlfriend we had no sex for 2 years, and we no need it to show how we love each other... No need sex to show love and metta, in other case we should make it with all those peoples we love, like chimpaze ;) Iam not a chimpanze, with all respect to these lovely beings... Actualy when i see someone be obsessed by sex i see him like a chempanze or an animal :s

Like a song from my childhood said "...So do it like they do on the discovery channel ..." :)

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