Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Strange interpretation. It's not about wanting to limit their pleasures.
Your original point was:
Male Buddhists should put their wedding ring where their mouth is and marry female Buddhists who have at least as much dedication to the Dhamma as they do. That way, they wouldn't be getting the best of both worlds anymore.
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
Although I suppose it is outrageous to expect that Buddhists should live up to their Buddhist standards!
Which standards are you referring to? Do you think the Buddha forbade marriage, or sex, or marrying someone of a different religion?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.

If a person manages to kick the crack then he should think twice about co-habitation with someone in recovery and not entertain the idea of living with an addict. I think living with wrong view is compared to living with a rotting corpse.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
You think it is acceptable that other people shoulder the costs of your pleasures?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
Binocular was talking about marriage to a non-Buddhist. You think that's like living in a crackhouse? I don't find it so.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:33 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm
You think it is acceptable that other people shoulder the costs of your pleasures?
Not unless they have incurred that particular debt.

But what's that got to do with marriage to a non-Buddhist?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:32 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
Binocular was talking about marriage to a non-Buddhist. You think that's like living in a crackhouse? I don't find it so.
Well change the addict to a person, change the sober for 8FNP, change the crack to sensuality and the crack-house to Samsara you will see the connection there.

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm
Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
I'm not suggesting that. I take issue with the idea that it is acceptable to take what is, essentially, blood money, ie. money obtained at the cost of another's life, or other equivalents of that.

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:42 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm
Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
I'm not suggesting that. I take issue with the idea that it is acceptable to take what is, essentially, blood money, ie. money obtained at the cost of another's life, or other equivalents of that.

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
Well let me say first that i do not split people into Buddhists and Not-Buddhists, i think that has no ground in reality. It would apply if we were in different universes altogether, we are not, we are in the same world system and subject to the same universal principles that govern this particular universe. To me a human is human, buddhist or christian, what are Buddhists guaranteed not to be Nihilists or Eternalists? In case people do not know the Right View of Buddhism is not having a view but understanding of this particular world system and beyond.

Any piece of wrong information perceived to be true is a fault and an exploit that can cause a disaster. dont quote me on that as it has to do with possible consequences but i think it is not hard to imagine a hypothetical situation where a bit of wrong info causes a disaster.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
Well change the addict to a person, change the sober for 8FNP, change the crack to sensuality and the crack-house to Samsara you will see the connection there.
I can't see any connection, I'm afraid. Try it again with a plain account rather than a lurid metaphor and I'll see if I get it then.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
What exactly are these things that non-Buddhist wives do that are so risky? I'd like to know, as I wouldn't want to expose my wife to any unnecessary risks.

(And if I'm honest, I wouldn't like to think I was missing out on any of these worldly pleasures due to being a bit naive... :embarassed: )

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:11 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
Well change the addict to a person, change the sober for 8FNP, change the crack to sensuality and the crack-house to Samsara you will see the connection there.
I can't see any connection, I'm afraid. Try it again with a plain account rather than a lurid metaphor and I'll see if I get it then.
Well i will try in my own words
Person A) on confidence takes it that Indulging in sensual pleasure is wrong/evil/bad and has bad long term expected result but having settled on a mode of practice he does not let it make or break his progress and is moderated by his training regiment for the time being (precept or his own personal rules, goals and challenges)
He occasionally reflects on the drawbacks of sensuality, occasionally he reflects wrongly on sensuality, he reflects thus both wrongly and rightly on sensuality, according to reality and not according to reality. Such person can be expected to eventually clearly perceive the drawbacks in sensuality.

Person B) Does not take it on confidence and acts by default on the view the that Indulging in sensual pleasure is not wrong/evil/bad and has a good or neutral long term expected result. Such person rarely if ever reflects on the drawbacks of sensuality and often reflect wrongly on it as in not in accordance with reality. This person is not expected to clearly perceive the drawbacks in sensuality.

So if you put them these students together without imposing rules of conduct on them B will distract A and might even convince A of his wrong view.

:group:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:18 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:11 pm
if you put them these students together without imposing rules of conduct on them B will distract A and might even convince A of his wrong view.
Ah, rules of conduct. I would have thought that most Buddhists live by some of them, don't they? And I would have thought that if a Buddhist (or anyone, really) is daft enough to marry a person whose unrestrained sensuality is actually harmful, then they would make it a rule not to incur that harm themselves. Binocular's post was about why Buddhists should not marry non-Buddhists. I'm still trying to work out why the perils of Buddhist-wife-sensuality are somehow less than non-Buddhist-wife-sensuality.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm
Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
I'm not suggesting that. I take issue with the idea that it is acceptable to take what is, essentially, blood money, ie. money obtained at the cost of another's life, or other equivalents of that.

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
It is non-self, if Buddhists upon hearing the Dhamma could press a button to renounce and try out Nibbana, they would trust me. Most go on conviction more or less so and have doubt, unlike christians Buddhists are open about this..

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:18 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:11 pm
if you put them these students together without imposing rules of conduct on them B will distract A and might even convince A of his wrong view.
Ah, rules of conduct. I would have thought that most Buddhists live by some of them, don't they? And I would have thought that if a Buddhist (or anyone, really) is daft enough to marry a person whose unrestrained sensuality is actually harmful, then they would make it a rule not to incur that harm themselves. Binocular's post was about why Buddhists should not marry non-Buddhists. I'm still trying to work out why the perils of Buddhist-wife-sensuality are somehow less than non-Buddhist-wife-sensuality.
Idk much about the precepts i guess it is harder for some. The 5 precepts are common sense really, the only thing not commonly established is killing animals and in self defense. I came to buddhism from the nofap/mgtow community so i was mainly interested in the 8 precepts to begin with to train.
I would have thought that if a Buddhist (or anyone, really) is daft enough to marry a person whose unrestrained sensuality is actually harmful, then they would make it a rule not to incur that harm themselves.
i was not that smart but nobody was teaching this either :/

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:43 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:31 pm
I came to buddhism from the nofap/mgtow community
I had to look those up!
i was not that smart but nobody was teaching this either :/
Yes, I get your point. The 5 precepts will be enough to protect you, though. Inside or outside of a relationship.

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