Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:04 pm

another thing about associating with wrong view is that they f*** up way more than you do.
a normal person can't not-mess up for 3 months, i do not see it happen... When i was associating with people they mess up, something happens, they misinterperet it and make a mistake and all emotional. Eventually due to this misunderstanding they will blame you but not being able to put a finger on it they are just angry at you for a while and for no good reason and you cba explaining anything because student/teacher relationship has not been established. Later they see how awesome you are when you save their ass and so it goes in cycle. Eventually WV just get outclassed in such a relationship and will not feel comfortable also sometimes they will make huge mistakes and you will get very angry, here i can get super vicious and this is where what Hate i have will arise for me:(
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:05 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:57 pm
Male Buddhists should put their wedding ring where their mouth is and marry female Buddhists who have at least as much dedication to the Dhamma as they do. That way, they wouldn't be getting the best of both worlds anymore.
The best of both worlds?
I was talking about male Buddhists who are married to non-Buddhists or to Buddhist with a lesser dedication.
"The best of both worlds" refers to getting the best of the Buddhist world, and also of the non-Buddhist world.

Let's take our male Buddhist for example, and suppose he enjoys eating meat, but because of his Buddhist practice he has some qualms about eating meat, all those poor animals suffering and bad karma and whatnot. So he marries or otherwise gets involved with a non-Buddhist or a Buddhist with a somewhat more relaxed ethics, leaves her to do all the shopping and cooking. She cooks him lots of meat, and he, presumably innocent, just takes what he's being offered. That's how he gets the best of both worlds.
Similar for other worldly pleasures and sex.

Had he married a Buddhist with the same dedication to Buddhism as himself, or even more dedicated, those pleasures would be off limits.


Edited for spelling.
Yes, I understood what you meant. I was a bit puzzled as to why you wanted to limit anyone's pleasures at all. If a Buddhist wants to marry, or have sex, or eat meat, why would it bother anyone?

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binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm
"The best of both worlds" refers to getting the best of the Buddhist world, and also of the non-Buddhist world.
I know what you are talking about and i have reflected on this but in a different way. I definitely have this but its actually not as good as you make it sound, it is actually quite horrifying to know that people around you will readily jump at opportunity if you want company in misbehaving. That is incredibly sad to witness.
/.../
The situations you describe are different from the one I describe, namely marriage or romantic/sexual partnership/cohabitation.
A Buddhist man involved with a non-Buddhist can this way get pleasures that he couldn't get if he were with a Buddhist; and he can get away with it, as the non-Buddhist is the one who shoulders the risks and responsibilities (that a Buddhist would be unwilling to).

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binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:05 pm
Yes, I understood what you meant. I was a bit puzzled as to why you wanted to limit anyone's pleasures at all.
Strange interpretation. It's not about wanting to limit their pleasures.

Although I suppose it is outrageous to expect that Buddhists should live up to their Buddhist standards!
If a Buddhist wants to marry, or have sex, or eat meat, why would it bother anyone?
Oh, but you can't make the Dhamma mean so many things.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:16 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:10 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm
"The best of both worlds" refers to getting the best of the Buddhist world, and also of the non-Buddhist world.
I know what you are talking about and i have reflected on this but in a different way. I definitely have this but its actually not as good as you make it sound, it is actually quite horrifying to know that people around you will readily jump at opportunity if you want company in misbehaving. That is incredibly sad to witness.
/.../
The situations you describe are different from the one I describe, namely marriage or romantic/sexual partnership/cohabitation.
A Buddhist man involved with a non-Buddhist can this way get pleasures that he couldn't get if he were with a Buddhist; and he can get away with it, as the non-Buddhist is the one who shoulders the risks and responsibilities (that a Buddhist would be unwilling to).
Trust me i know what i am talking about, age 21-26 i was living with a female and we remained friends for a few years after we split. My first relationship lasted 5 years and i did not even get a very good partner. I think i was lucky not to find someone more capable bet we would make it work.

I wont go into details but i've pretty much done most of it as a lay person... It works same for all association that is based on greed, you compromise until a point where Anger takes over and then you smooth things out because both are a f*** ups and keep going at it until one makes an unacceptable mistake or teamjumps.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Strange interpretation. It's not about wanting to limit their pleasures.
Your original point was:
Male Buddhists should put their wedding ring where their mouth is and marry female Buddhists who have at least as much dedication to the Dhamma as they do. That way, they wouldn't be getting the best of both worlds anymore.
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
Although I suppose it is outrageous to expect that Buddhists should live up to their Buddhist standards!
Which standards are you referring to? Do you think the Buddha forbade marriage, or sex, or marrying someone of a different religion?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.

If a person manages to kick the crack then he should think twice about co-habitation with someone in recovery and not entertain the idea of living with an addict. I think living with wrong view is compared to living with a rotting corpse.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm
Why should people not get "the best of both worlds" if they want to and are able?
You think it is acceptable that other people shoulder the costs of your pleasures?

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
Binocular was talking about marriage to a non-Buddhist. You think that's like living in a crackhouse? I don't find it so.

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:33 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm
You think it is acceptable that other people shoulder the costs of your pleasures?
Not unless they have incurred that particular debt.

But what's that got to do with marriage to a non-Buddhist?

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:32 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Simile of a crack-addict trying to stay sober whilst living in a crackhouse comes to mind :thinking:
Because that is what it is like basically. Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
Binocular was talking about marriage to a non-Buddhist. You think that's like living in a crackhouse? I don't find it so.
Well change the addict to a person, change the sober for 8FNP, change the crack to sensuality and the crack-house to Samsara you will see the connection there.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm
Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
I'm not suggesting that. I take issue with the idea that it is acceptable to take what is, essentially, blood money, ie. money obtained at the cost of another's life, or other equivalents of that.

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:42 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 pm
Binocular suggesting why not take the neighbour along with the drugs to a retreat.
I'm not suggesting that. I take issue with the idea that it is acceptable to take what is, essentially, blood money, ie. money obtained at the cost of another's life, or other equivalents of that.

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
Well let me say first that i do not split people into Buddhists and Not-Buddhists, i think that has no ground in reality. It would apply if we were in different universes altogether, we are not, we are in the same world system and subject to the same universal principles that govern this particular universe. To me a human is human, buddhist or christian, what are Buddhists guaranteed not to be Nihilists or Eternalists? In case people do not know the Right View of Buddhism is not having a view but understanding of this particular world system and beyond.

Any piece of wrong information perceived to be true is a fault and an exploit that can cause a disaster. dont quote me on that as it has to do with possible consequences but i think it is not hard to imagine a hypothetical situation where a bit of wrong info causes a disaster.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm
Well change the addict to a person, change the sober for 8FNP, change the crack to sensuality and the crack-house to Samsara you will see the connection there.
I can't see any connection, I'm afraid. Try it again with a plain account rather than a lurid metaphor and I'll see if I get it then.

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

The non-Buddhist wife is risking health and life and possibly severe kammic consequences to provide worldly pleasures in which the Buddhist husband can, apparently innocently, enjoy. A Buddhist wife wouldn't do that.
What exactly are these things that non-Buddhist wives do that are so risky? I'd like to know, as I wouldn't want to expose my wife to any unnecessary risks.

(And if I'm honest, I wouldn't like to think I was missing out on any of these worldly pleasures due to being a bit naive... :embarassed: )

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