Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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dylanj
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:42 am

Also, I do not mean to say debt is absolutely the only reason I am not ordaining. Also, the Buddha says not to sit in debt like a stone in water & I think I'd like to work myself to pay it off for the sake of peace of mind, knowing I'm not shirking responsibility or being lazy.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:50 am

it feels like that says i am lazy and irresponsible, but i'm not im just poor, unskilled and have a greater debt
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:03 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 pm
SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm
Do we short ourselves an opportunity to discover Dhamma if we settle for the five precepts instead of eight?

Thoughts?
I'd be permanently shorting myself of Mrs. Vara if I went for the eight. :shock:
... and she might become very happy, and that's a bit .. bit ..!?!... ;)

Joke aside :anjali:

Asked my wife how about me ordaining, and she went still before saying in a calm kind way: Well, I would know that you always be fine then ...

When it comes to op, I really don't see so much obstacles to make a useful structure for developing practice in lay life, and have done it myself, and it works. What I believe is the "real" obstacle, is that laypeople think they can be successful in both worlds.


:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:47 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:41 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:28 am
dylan u told me to just take the dukkaṭa and ordain, why different for u
I don't think I said that, because the dukkaṭa is for the monk ordaining you, not you, & to ask that of them seems not quite right. I believe what I said is that if I were a preceptor I'd take the dukkaṭa myself & ordain you.
If preceptor does not know what is the offense for the preceptor? I don't want it that badly as it is now tbh with you but that is me so i would not transgress in this way nor would i ask the preceptor to ordain if he knew
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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dylanj
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:52 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:50 am
it feels like that says i am lazy and irresponsible, but i'm not im just poor, unskilled and have a greater debt
not what i meant, applied specifically to me because i can barely get myself to work
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:53 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:47 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:41 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:28 am
dylan u told me to just take the dukkaṭa and ordain, why different for u
I don't think I said that, because the dukkaṭa is for the monk ordaining you, not you, & to ask that of them seems not quite right. I believe what I said is that if I were a preceptor I'd take the dukkaṭa myself & ordain you.
If preceptor does not know what is the offense for the preceptor? I don't want it that badly as it is now tbh with you but that is me so i would not transgress in this way nor would i ask to the preceptor to ordain if he knew i would not accept ordination probably.
not sure but when you're being ordained, whether you have debt is one of 10 questions so they have to know or you would have to lie
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:54 am

i misread your post sorry, tired already
actually in hindsight i would probably be inclined to accept on account that the ordination is to stand if we confess
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:53 am
if he knew i would not accept ordination probably.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:01 am

SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm
How do we best structure lay life to get the most out of our practice? How close is too close when it comes to emulating monastics? Do we short ourselves an opportunity to discover Dhamma if we settle for the five precepts instead of eight?
I don't think it's about "emulating monastics" (although I suppose that some people who are relatively well off could be doing that). Many lay people are, by circumstances of their birth or some specific mental health issues, forced to live a less or more monastic-like life. Living in poverty and having to make do with few material posessions is an obvious example. But also people who have deficits in the executive functioning have to consciously make up for what they lack in comparison to the rest of the population (meaning that they have to consciously do what to others comes naturally, and avoid everything that interferes with their ability to do so (which can mean avoiding sugar, loud music, etc.)), and all that deliberatedness of their actions and selectiveness can then have some resemblance to the way monastics are.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:03 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 pm
SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm
Do we short ourselves an opportunity to discover Dhamma if we settle for the five precepts instead of eight?

Thoughts?
I'd be permanently shorting myself of Mrs. Vara if I went for the eight. :shock:
Male Buddhists should put their wedding ring where their mouth is and marry female Buddhists who have at least as much dedication to the Dhamma as they do. That way, they wouldn't be getting the best of both worlds anymore.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:17 pm

If it should it would ... :tongue:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:57 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 pm
SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm
Do we short ourselves an opportunity to discover Dhamma if we settle for the five precepts instead of eight?

Thoughts?
I'd be permanently shorting myself of Mrs. Vara if I went for the eight. :shock:
Male Buddhists should put their wedding ring where their mouth is and marry female Buddhists who have at least as much dedication to the Dhamma as they do. That way, they wouldn't be getting the best of both worlds anymore.
The best of both worlds?
The doer of good delights here and hereafter; he delights in both the worlds. The thought, "Good have I done," delights him, and he delights even more when gone to realms of bliss.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:26 pm

SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:25 pm

What is preventing you from ordaining? It is the first question that comes to mind when I see practitioners trying to "monastify the laity". I used to be one btw. I'm honestly curious what you think about this and wondering if it is something you have considered. If you prefer such a strict lifestyle, why not ordain where the conditions are already the way you prefer? Why put the pressure on the laity?

(If this goes off topic we can move the discussion.)
most of the monastics I know (on the internet), they do not put weight on lay people. they guide our practice according to our way of life.

of course it will depend on the monastics, there are those who are more radical and lighter. and the Buddha pointing the middle way.

one of the reasons that keeps me from being a monk is discipline. wake up every day at 5 o'clock in the morning and meditate. I usually do this, the problem is you have that obligation to do that.

Now at that time a clansman named Ratthapala, the son of the leading clan in that same Thullakotthita, was sitting in that assembly. The thought occurred to him, "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it's not easy, living at home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the household life into homelessness?"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Monks who are skilled in meditation are not biased by cultural
conditioning. They have no doubt that women who observe the
eight precepts and practice seriously can attain exceptionally high
levels of meditation. In truth, women have a remarkable capacity
for understanding Dhamma and can achieve deep levels of samādhi
and develop extraordinary knowledge and wisdom. Many nuns and
laywomen in Thailand surpass the monks in their accomplishments.
For this reason, meditation masters generally hold female practitioners
in high esteem, considering them equal to men in their spiritual
potential. In the Thai forest tradition today, many revered teachers
believe that women are capable of the highest spiritual attainment.
They often recommend female monastics as exemplary teachers.
Many forest meditation masters have women students, both nuns
and laywomen, who are recognized as teachers in their own right.
These women actively participate in their religious communities as
skilled meditators, healers or mentors, and are revered by local people.
Mae Chee Kaew was just such a woman. Practicing nuns like
her have left a legacy to inspire future generations and to show how
the Buddhist path of practice may be reopened by anyone, male or
female.

Mae Chee Kaew - Her Journey To Spiritual Awakening & Enlightenment
http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/engl ... e_Kaew.pdf
Svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo: sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī ti.
The Dhamma is well declared by the Bhagavā: visible here and now, immediate, inviting to come and see, effective, to be individually ascertained by the wise.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/formulae/anussati.html

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:11 pm

work is bad tho dylan. for one who has a tendency to do unwholesome things in their spare time, work is preferred; if you review dn 31 carefully it says this
but you do dhamma all day, don't you? :buddha1:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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SDC
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by SDC » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:46 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:01 am
I don't think it's about "emulating monastics" (although I suppose that some people who are relatively well off could be doing that). Many lay people are, by circumstances of their birth or some specific mental health issues, forced to live a less or more monastic-like life. Living in poverty and having to make do with few material posessions is an obvious example. But also people who have deficits in the executive functioning have to consciously make up for what they lack in comparison to the rest of the population (meaning that they have to consciously do what to others comes naturally, and avoid everything that interferes with their ability to do so (which can mean avoiding sugar, loud music, etc.)), and all that deliberatedness of their actions and selectiveness can then have some resemblance to the way monastics are.
Perhaps "emulate" was the wrong word. Practicing at the level of a monastic, out of obligation is more of what I meant. As if that is the standard for a lay practitioner. I just think it's conflating two different lifestyles. If you raise the bar for the every day lay person then you're only bound to create a broader hierarchy, with majority remaining as they were. I just think we already have a useful hierarchy with upward mobility well established.

Digity
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Digity » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:39 am

Yeah, I don't think I have the discipline to be a full time monk, but I continue to practice in my own way as a lay follower. Each year I try to become a bit more disciplined in my practice. I've sort of settled on the gradual approach...for me it's a marathon not a race. However, I admire those who treat it with more urgency and commitment. I wish I had more of that in me, but I've made progress in my current approach...slowly though.

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