Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:46 pm

This is a good sutta on family life and in regards to leadership it is instructive;
AN 4.255
Kula Sutta: On Families
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"In every case where a family cannot hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons. Which four? They don't look for things that are lost. They don't repair things that have gotten old. They are immoderate in consuming food and drink. They place a woman or man of no virtue or principles in the position of authority. In every case where a family cannot hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons.

"In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons. Which four? They look for things that are lost. They repair things that have gotten old. They are moderate in consuming food and drink. They place a virtuous, principled woman or man in the position of authority. In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons."
Here virtuosity is defined;
Mahanama Sutta: Being a Lay Buddhist
translated from the Pali by
Kumara Bhikkhu
© 2005
...
"Then, venerable sir, in what way is a lay follower virtuous?"

"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is virtuous."
...
If a Buddhist husband wants to lead he has to be qualified otherwise he ought to let the woman lead in general as i understand these Sutta.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm
The rest of your post is, once more, a generalised critique of men, but there is still nothing in it to justify your earlier point about Buddhist wives being somehow different because of their Buddhism.
Like I said, I'm trying to stay within the bounds of the ToS, so I'm afraid some things will have to remain unsaid.
OK - understood.

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:15 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:46 pm
If a Buddhist husband wants to lead he has to be qualified otherwise he ought to let the woman lead in general as i understand these Sutta.
What Buddhist man does not consider himself qualified to lead?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:45 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:15 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:46 pm
If a Buddhist husband wants to lead he has to be qualified otherwise he ought to let the woman lead in general as i understand these Sutta.
What Buddhist man does not consider himself qualified to lead?
The one who does not consider himself qualified to lead obviously. I am sure many would be happy to let a woman take the lead if she really was more qualified. If i was in relationship with a Sakidagami female, i would assist her in running my life pretty much.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 pm

SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:25 pm
[Split from this thread.]
dylanj wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:58 pm
stop playing them. renounce them all forever. it's the best & only real option
What is preventing you from ordaining? It is the first question that comes to mind when I see practitioners trying to "monastify the laity". I used to be one btw. I'm honestly curious what you think about this and wondering if it is something you have considered. If you prefer such a strict lifestyle, why not ordain where the conditions are already the way you prefer? Why put the pressure on the laity?

(If this goes off topic we can move the discussion.)
I confess, after deleting my games, next morning I was in panic. I asked the developers to restore my game progress, and I get back all my childish entertainment.

I'm still not ready to such a strict lifestyle.

But at least I stopped listening to music two weeks ago, which was a lifetime habit and fetter.

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:23 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 pm
I'm still not ready to such a strict lifestyle.
It is good to occasionally test our limits like you did there.
:anjali:
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DNS
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:11 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 pm
Of course, this is where some Buddhist men chip in with the whole no-self thing. Oddly enough, why don't they refer to no-self when it comes to their groins.
:lol: :thumbsup:
binocular wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 pm
Maybe it was just my bad luck that those two were such jerks. But in reality, the vast majority of men have exactly the same expectations, the same criteria about relationships (except maybe for some very strict Hasidic Jews and a few others). Some men just happen to be more polite than others. This may change the surface of the relationship, but not its nature.
I have lived next door to some Hasidic Jews in the past and I can tell you the husbands are no better there either. They expect their wives to have at least 6 children; even 10 children for one Hasidic woman is not unusual.
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:15 pm
What Buddhist man does not consider himself qualified to lead?
As I mentioned in the other thread, surely you must have seen at least some couples where the man is the doormat? And then other couples where the relationship is very egalitarian. I realize it is not as common as the traditional gender roles of the past, but there have been some improvements over the years.

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No_Mind
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:45 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:15 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:46 pm
If a Buddhist husband wants to lead he has to be qualified otherwise he ought to let the woman lead in general as i understand these Sutta.
What Buddhist man does not consider himself qualified to lead?
The one who does not consider himself qualified to lead obviously. I am sure many would be happy to let a woman take the lead if she really was more qualified. If i was in relationship with a Sakidagami female, i would assist her in running my life pretty much.
Just imagine with all their meditation and friendship with devas the insights they would have on NASDAQ futures or even greyhound races.

No_Mind and his sakadgami wife took a bus to Vegas .. yet to create rest of the joke

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Nwad
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Nwad » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:22 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:23 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 pm
I'm still not ready to such a strict lifestyle.
It is good to occasionally test our limits like you did there.
:anjali:
:goodpost:
oncereturner wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 pm
SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:25 pm
[Split from this thread.]
dylanj wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:58 pm
stop playing them. renounce them all forever. it's the best & only real option
What is preventing you from ordaining? It is the first question that comes to mind when I see practitioners trying to "monastify the laity". I used to be one btw. I'm honestly curious what you think about this and wondering if it is something you have considered. If you prefer such a strict lifestyle, why not ordain where the conditions are already the way you prefer? Why put the pressure on the laity?

(If this goes off topic we can move the discussion.)
I confess, after deleting my games, next morning I was in panic. I asked the developers to restore my game progress, and I get back all my childish entertainment.

I'm still not ready to such a strict lifestyle.

But at least I stopped listening to music two weeks ago, which was a lifetime habit and fetter.

:anjali:
Its ok ;) You made a hit on your attachments, it will generate a kamma of nenounciation so its good to test your limits as said by View ;)

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:10 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:11 pm
I have lived next door to some Hasidic Jews in the past and I can tell you the husbands are no better there either. They expect their wives to have at least 6 children; even 10 children for one Hasidic woman is not unusual.
I mean that at least some strict Hasidic Jews don't automatically expect their wives to have abortions, and don't insist on sex at all costs.

In religious contrast, a midwife here said that she has had cases where a Catholic woman asked for the midwife to stay with her for the night after she gave birth, so that at least for one night, she would be free from her husband demanding his right. Catholic priests actually instruct married people that a woman must always submit to her husband.
As I mentioned in the other thread, surely you must have seen at least some couples where the man is the doormat? And then other couples where the relationship is very egalitarian.
No. But I know many people who pretend to be that way. The husband pretending to be a doormat, or one or both of the partners pretending they are equal in the relationship.


To tie back to the OP:
SDC wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm
How do we best structure lay life to get the most out of our practice? How close is too close when it comes to emulating monastics? Do we short ourselves an opportunity to discover Dhamma if we settle for the five precepts instead of eight?
Quoting an earlier post:
SDC wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:59 pm
Think about it in terms of infatuation or obsession. Even when one is tending to their daily responsibilities, if something is dominating their mind they are going to dwell on it whether they want to or not, sometimes to the detriment of those responsibilities. If the Dhamma can be built up like that, every thought and action will incline towards it. The only difference with an inclination towards the Dhamma is the inherent and resulting wholesomeness typically absent in such aggressive reflection. Even if it were to be to the detriment of ordinary things, the wisdom that is gained would be worth the trouble (though one should be mindful to strike a reasonable balance considering those daily responsibilities). Again, it has to be built up to such a level though. Life will not incline towards the Dhamma if the Dhamma is not a generator of the necessary gravity for that inclination. That generation is the key to a dynamic pursuit of the Dhamma and it all starts with a desire to acquire its benefits (the only desire the Buddha praised).
The question is whther the Dhamma can be pursued in any other way but that -- as something that completely consumes a person's attention.
Can anything less than that actually be the pursuit of the Dhamma, or is it just Buddhism?


Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires and act on them, and that therefore, pursuing sensual desires is somehow not all that detrimental; and also implying that all sensual desires are the same in some important way. But that's like saying that eating a handful of potato chips and eating an apple is the same, because they have the same amount of calories.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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robertk
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by robertk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am

Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:25 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.
:goodpost: Excellent point.

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SDC
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by SDC » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:10 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires and act on them, and that therefore, pursuing sensual desires is somehow not all that detrimental; and also implying that all sensual desires are the same in some important way. But that's like saying that eating a handful of potato chips and eating an apple is the same, because they have the same amount of calories.
For a puthujjana to use the "sotapanna still has sensual desire" excuse is akin to a soldier claiming that war has given him PTSD while he is still in basic training. It is an utterly ridiculous claim. Look, most people want their cake and want to eat it as well. There are degrees of ignoring that are revealed through practice, and only through those revelations can one see just how deeply they were ignoring their attempts to hold incompatible things together. So it isn't usually an attempt to be conniving - it is just a case of people thinking they can balance both, when all too often they are heavily in favor of one at the expense of the other. In other words, people legitimately do not know how full of sh*t they are. They enjoy pretending to be all Dhammic and wise, yet they crumble at the slightest, most minuscule shift in circumstance. Why? Because feeling and looking like a good Buddhist was more important than actually being one. Being one?! :rofl: Who cares about that?! :lol: ........ :|
binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:10 am
SDC wrote:Think about it in terms of infatuation or obsession. Even when one is tending to their daily responsibilities, if something is dominating their mind they are going to dwell on it whether they want to or not, sometimes to the detriment of those responsibilities. If the Dhamma can be built up like that, every thought and action will incline towards it. The only difference with an inclination towards the Dhamma is the inherent and resulting wholesomeness typically absent in such aggressive reflection. Even if it were to be to the detriment of ordinary things, the wisdom that is gained would be worth the trouble (though one should be mindful to strike a reasonable balance considering those daily responsibilities). Again, it has to be built up to such a level though. Life will not incline towards the Dhamma if the Dhamma is not a generator of the necessary gravity for that inclination. That generation is the key to a dynamic pursuit of the Dhamma and it all starts with a desire to acquire its benefits (the only desire the Buddha praised).
The question is whther the Dhamma can be pursued in any other way but that -- as something that completely consumes a person's attention.
Can anything less than that actually be the pursuit of the Dhamma, or is it just Buddhism?
Any degree of inclining towards the Dhamma is better than not, and although it is probably better to make a lifetime of consistent low-grade progress towards the greater goal than to pursue it wrongly in some major life-altering manner and gain nothing, it is that major life-altering style that could pay off big time in ways that the rather safe approach won't even after years of failure. It all comes down to the generation of that inclination and finding the things that will deepen it. Perhaps early on that will consist of romantic notions of being a "wise Buddhist", but if that is not exactly your style, it may take some degree of actual results in order to get things moving. This is a whole other story though.

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by DNS » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:06 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 am
No_Mind and his sakadgami wife took a bus to Vegas .. yet to create rest of the joke
. . . . . . only to find out that David's wife had already run the tables. :tongue:

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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:34 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.
Sounds like yet another excuse in favor of anomie.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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