Structuring lay life

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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robertk
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by robertk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am

Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:25 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.
:goodpost: Excellent point.

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SDC
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by SDC » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:10 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires and act on them, and that therefore, pursuing sensual desires is somehow not all that detrimental; and also implying that all sensual desires are the same in some important way. But that's like saying that eating a handful of potato chips and eating an apple is the same, because they have the same amount of calories.
For a puthujjana to use the "sotapanna still has sensual desire" excuse is akin to a soldier claiming that war has given him PTSD while he is still in basic training. It is an utterly ridiculous claim. Look, most people want their cake and want to eat it as well. There are degrees of ignoring that are revealed through practice, and only through those revelations can one see just how deeply they were ignoring their attempts to hold incompatible things together. So it isn't usually an attempt to be conniving - it is just a case of people thinking they can balance both, when all too often they are heavily in favor of one at the expense of the other. In other words, people legitimately do not know how full of sh*t they are. They enjoy pretending to be all Dhammic and wise, yet they crumble at the slightest, most minuscule shift in circumstance. Why? Because feeling and looking like a good Buddhist was more important than actually being one. Being one?! :rofl: Who cares about that?! :lol: ........ :|
binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:10 am
SDC wrote:Think about it in terms of infatuation or obsession. Even when one is tending to their daily responsibilities, if something is dominating their mind they are going to dwell on it whether they want to or not, sometimes to the detriment of those responsibilities. If the Dhamma can be built up like that, every thought and action will incline towards it. The only difference with an inclination towards the Dhamma is the inherent and resulting wholesomeness typically absent in such aggressive reflection. Even if it were to be to the detriment of ordinary things, the wisdom that is gained would be worth the trouble (though one should be mindful to strike a reasonable balance considering those daily responsibilities). Again, it has to be built up to such a level though. Life will not incline towards the Dhamma if the Dhamma is not a generator of the necessary gravity for that inclination. That generation is the key to a dynamic pursuit of the Dhamma and it all starts with a desire to acquire its benefits (the only desire the Buddha praised).
The question is whther the Dhamma can be pursued in any other way but that -- as something that completely consumes a person's attention.
Can anything less than that actually be the pursuit of the Dhamma, or is it just Buddhism?
Any degree of inclining towards the Dhamma is better than not, and although it is probably better to make a lifetime of consistent low-grade progress towards the greater goal than to pursue it wrongly in some major life-altering manner and gain nothing, it is that major life-altering style that could pay off big time in ways that the rather safe approach won't even after years of failure. It all comes down to the generation of that inclination and finding the things that will deepen it. Perhaps early on that will consist of romantic notions of being a "wise Buddhist", but if that is not exactly your style, it may take some degree of actual results in order to get things moving. This is a whole other story though.

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DNS
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by DNS » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:06 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 am
No_Mind and his sakadgami wife took a bus to Vegas .. yet to create rest of the joke
. . . . . . only to find out that David's wife had already run the tables. :tongue:

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:34 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:32 am
Many people brush off the issue by saying that even sotapannas still have sensual desires
at the moments of understanding sense desire there is already a level of detachment.
But if one thinks, instead, that they should change things, become more detached, they ignore what the actual moment is.
Sounds like yet another excuse in favor of anomie.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:52 pm

SDC wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm
Any degree of inclining towards the Dhamma is better than not, and although it is probably better to make a lifetime of consistent low-grade progress towards the greater goal than to pursue it wrongly in some major life-altering manner and gain nothing, it is that major life-altering style that could pay off big time in ways that the rather safe approach won't even after years of failure.
I don't think one has much choice in these matters. There are even suttas that speak about the different courses of action for different people, and the idea seems to be that one cannot choose which course one will get. So for some people, the path is slow and painful, for some others fast and painful, for some slow and pleasant, for yet others fast and pleasant.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z


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manas
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by manas » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:54 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:43 pm


Obviously we should re-organize the infrastructure and i have many ideas.

Trust me in that if i could, id be ordained, not rotting away here. It is causing me a lot of stress not being able to train in a supportive enviroment and having to endure the lay-state as it is.
A group of laymen could pool their resources and share a large dwelling, where the basic rule is, everyone follows the eight precepts strictly. It would be an environment supportive of more intensive practice, without the distraction of hearing TV in the background, or parties by flatmates, etc, as one does ordinarily. Just get a big share house, and agree that to live there, one must be strictly following the eight. Due to residents having to earn money to survive, the main meal of the day might need to be pretty early in the morning, but so long as it is after dawn and before midday, one would still be keeping to the rule. What do folks thing of this? An alternative to ordaining, for those of us who, for some reason or other, are (of feel) excluded from pursing that option.

On that note, any one living in Melbourne, get in touch...I'd love to try this out sometime.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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rightviewftw
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:14 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:54 pm
I am exploring a solution where i alone could support about 5-10 meditators long term.
However i am also very tempted to ordain and i will be able to eventually so i will go for it.
These are not mutually exclusive goals and i have no idea how it will work out but i will definitely not sit like a stone in water :)

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:06 am

Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:22 am

Its ok ;) You made a hit on your attachments, it will generate a kamma of nenounciation so its good to test your limits as said by View ;)
Reading through the thread, I agree with the "radical party ", Dylan, Binocular and Nwad.

Buddha shows the way to end suffering, and imo every sensual pleasure causes pain. I try break down the fetters gradually. It can't happen overnight. The OP was about the percepts.

IMHO the more percepts we can take, the closer we can get to enlightenment, which is not a religious illusion, it really works (in my personal experience).

I have some problems with the percepts, in India people can sleep on the floor, but in colder climates it can lead to illnesses. The bed causes sleepiness, hunger, craving and lots of problems. For that reason, he said not to sleep on a high bed.

I considered not having a girl for ten years is a curse, but now I think it's a virtue. :)

I think it's possible to skip one percept, for example eating afternoon, but taking the others. I have to eat afternoon, especially when work starts at noon.

I still have some problems with drinking beer, but as I mentioned, taking the other percepts helps a lot.

I hacked a game, I have unlimited weapons. ;) I consider this not a stealing because I have already purchased these, just deleted it in the meantime.

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:37 pm

SDC wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm
In other words, people legitimately do not know how full of sh*t they are. They enjoy pretending to be all Dhammic and wise, yet they crumble at the slightest, most minuscule shift in circumstance. Why? Because feeling and looking like a good Buddhist was more important than actually being one. Being one?! :rofl: Who cares about that?! :lol: ........ :|
Sadly 99.9% of people doesn't even know dhamma. They are aggressive, adapted to the harsh circumstances. And they are proud to be a fool, drunkard or a criminal. When I tell them something about it, they say "don't teach me, low-life" or "it's a religious text, I have my own religion". Some of them are intelligent, but they have their own views.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:57 pm

I'm humbled by your perfect English knowledge. :bow: It's not my mother tongue, it took me a week to figure out what "ordain" means. It makes me harder to access the true knowledge. I live in relatively good conditions, educated, read a lot of books, but what about those poor people living in Africa or in other regions? They can't access clean water, not to mention dhamma.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:08 pm

This thread is dead. Rip:
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Structuring lay life

Post by oncereturner » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:19 pm

I still can't feel compassion for my former teachers. One of them hit me, another one choked my neck. They will be fortunate not to meet me again, still feeling some kind of revenge. :/

Now I live amongst criminals, and I feel no compassion too. They should be locked in prison, only way to get rid of them.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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