Polyamorous relationships

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
santa100
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by santa100 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:17 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm
I'm not here to pick a virtual fight, thanks. If that's what you are into it's not going to happen with me.
If you think that's a virtual fight then so be it. I'm more than happy to engage in any fight. But I don't see it that way.

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Mkoll
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:10 pm

Let's cool off a bit y'all.

The reference from DN26 santa100 is referring to is found in its description of the downfall and eventual re-arising of human morals. This is the theme of the whole sutta. Higher morals correspond with higher lifespans and poor morals with lower. At the crescendo of the degenerate age, rampant promiscuity is found.
Among humans of this life-span, maidens of five years will be of a marriageable age.

Among such humans these kinds of tastes (savours) will disappear: ghee, butter, oil of tila, sugar, salt.

Among such humans kudrūsa grain will be the highest kind of food.

Even as to-day rice and curry is the highest kind of food, so will kudrūsa grain be then.

Among such humans the ten moral courses of conduct will altogether disappear, the ten immoral courses of action will flourish excessively; there will be no word for moral among such humans—far less any moral agent.

Among such humans, brethren, they who lack filial and religious piety, and show no respect for the head of the clan—’Tis they to whom homage and praise will be given, just as today homage and praise are given to the filial-minded, to the pious and to them who respect the heads of their clans.

Among such humans, brethren, there will be no [such thoughts of reverence as are a bar to inter-marriage with] mother, or mother’s sister, or mother’s sister-in-law, or teacher’s wife, or father’s sister-in-law.

The world will fall into promiscuity, like goats and sheep, fowls and swine, dogs and jackals.

Among such humans, brethren, keen mutual enmity will become the rule, keen ill-will, keen animosity, passionate thoughts even of killing, in a mother towards her child, in a child towards its mother, in a father towards his child and a child towards its father, in brother to brother, in brother to sister, in sister to brother.

Just as a sportsman feels towards the game that he sees, so will they feel.

Among such humans, brethren, there will arise a sword-period of seven days, during which they will look on each other as wild beasts; sharp swords will appear ready to their hands, and they, thinking ‘This is a wild beast, this is a wild beast,’ will with their swords deprive each other of life.
At this point in the sutta, mankind begins its moral redemption.

The ideal follower of the Buddha is free from lust and thus celibate. A human during mankind's most degenerate age is a lustful incestuous beast. So from that, I think we can safely infer that polyamorous relationships tend one toward degeneration, not distinction, and strongly at that.

Whether polyamorous relationships break the third precept is another matter. My reading is that as long as it does not break the law of one's land and all parties are willful and competent in giving consent, it is not breaking the precept. But I'm confident that the Buddha would not recommend this!
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

lostitude
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:29 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:10 pm

The ideal follower of the Buddha is free from lust and thus celibate. A human during mankind's most degenerate age is a lustful incestuous beast. So from that, I think we can safely infer that polyamorous relationships tend one toward degeneration, not distinction, and strongly at that.
I am not sure how polyamory leads to incest and the like, which are very strictly taboo in polygamous societies.
Also, something that should have been recalled from the beginning of this thread is that polyamory is a very broad concept that encompasses many kinds of people, from swingers all the way to trouples and polygamists who actually build a stable relationship based on faithfulness and commitment.

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Mkoll
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:44 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:29 pm
Mkoll wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:10 pm

The ideal follower of the Buddha is free from lust and thus celibate. A human during mankind's most degenerate age is a lustful incestuous beast. So from that, I think we can safely infer that polyamorous relationships tend one toward degeneration, not distinction, and strongly at that.
I am not sure how polyamory leads to incest and the like, which are very strictly taboo in polygamous societies.
Also, something that should have been recalled from the beginning of this thread is that polyamory is a very broad concept that encompasses many kinds of people, from swingers all the way to trouples and polygamists who actually build a stable relationship based on faithfulness and commitment.
My apologies, I wasn't clear because I used the word degeneration twice. I don't think polyamory leads to incest. I've rewritten what you quoted so that what I mean should be clearer, with the changed part bolded:

The ideal follower of the Buddha is free from lust and thus celibate. A human during mankind's most degenerate age is a lustful incestuous beast. So from that, I think we can safely infer that polyamorous relationships tend one away from the Dhamma, not toward it, all else being equal.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

dharmacorps
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:53 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:52 pm
Does the reverse view have any basis in the Buddha's teachings? That suffering can be reduced by reducing the number of people you are attached to, rather than by reducing the severity of the attachment?
Having wise friends and fewer attachments is the ideal.

lostitude
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:19 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:53 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:52 pm
Does the reverse view have any basis in the Buddha's teachings? That suffering can be reduced by reducing the number of people you are attached to, rather than by reducing the severity of the attachment?
Having wise friends and fewer attachments is the ideal.
So what matters is the number of attachments and not their strengths? I don't think that makes sense to me.

James Tan
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by James Tan » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:46 pm
I don't think the texts discuss it directly. They don't appear to be "cheating" since all are in agreement about the open marriage arrangement. However, we can glean some things from the texts:

1. The Buddha talks about duties and responsibilities of husbands and wives and appears to talk in a monogamous tone.
2. There are sutta references against indulgence in the senses and sexual relations on Uposota and retreat times.
3. There were kings who had polygamous marriages with multiple wives and the Buddha counseled them without criticizing that form of marriage.

And then not in the suttas, but people who engage in polyamorous relationships have reported about problems with jealousy and other relationship fighting.
1.
If the third precept is about cheating , perhaps people could find amendment so that not to cheat and yet possible to engage in relationships that do not violate it .
Eg. A person married with a lawful wife where the law indicated polygamous marriage is not allowed while other wifes whom are not legally recognised might willingly living together with the legitimate wife .

2. Does the precept is all about something after marriage or including premarital relationship ?
Such as before marriage one could engage in several relationship whether having sexual relationship or not ?
:reading:

lostitude
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by lostitude » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:18 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

1.
If the third precept is about cheating , perhaps people could find amendment so that not to cheat and yet possible to engage in relationships that do not violate it .
Eg. A person married with a lawful wife where the law indicated polygamous marriage is not allowed while other wifes whom are not legally recognised might willingly living together with the legitimate wife .

2. Does the precept is all about something after marriage or including premarital relationship ?
Such as before marriage one could engage in several relationship whether having sexual relationship or not ?
If I got it right, this boils down to whether the 3d precept is about avoiding to hurt anyone else and making sure that your relationship does not affect anyone negatively. OR whether it is about restricting sexual activity. So which one is it really?

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Mkoll
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Re: Polyamorous relationships

Post by Mkoll » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 pm

lostitude wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:18 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

1.
If the third precept is about cheating , perhaps people could find amendment so that not to cheat and yet possible to engage in relationships that do not violate it .
Eg. A person married with a lawful wife where the law indicated polygamous marriage is not allowed while other wifes whom are not legally recognised might willingly living together with the legitimate wife .

2. Does the precept is all about something after marriage or including premarital relationship ?
Such as before marriage one could engage in several relationship whether having sexual relationship or not ?
If I got it right, this boils down to whether the 3d precept is about avoiding to hurt anyone else and making sure that your relationship does not affect anyone negatively. OR whether it is about restricting sexual activity. So which one is it really?
It's both. By avoiding certain sexual activities, such as rape or pedophilia to use extreme examples, you're also avoiding harm to others. By avoiding harming others via sexual activity, you are restricting your potential for sexual activity. So it's both.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa


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