Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

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clw_uk
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Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:44 am

Personally I disagree with the word "Islamophobia". There is nothing "phobic" about fearing Islam, at least in its dominant forms, and all to often the word is used to merely smear an opponent and to shut down criticism of Islam, thus shielding the religion (which is dangerous).

Criticism and opposition to Islam is fine in my opinion. To be so doesn't necessarily mean being anti-Muslim (another confusion) or that the person is racist (Islam isn't a race). As Buddhists I feel we can be critical of bad ideas, whilst showing compassion and good will to individuals.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:22 am

It's not about not being able to criticize Islam. Criticize away.

It's about fearing all Muslims just because they are Muslims. The term was taken from Homophobia, which isn't a real phobia either. People just equate the term phobia with fear, and if by Islamophobia you mean an uneducated, all encompassing fear of Islam that has no basis in reality, it fits.

People don't want to debate or think anymore, that is why they shut things down with terms. Not using the word isn't going to make people be open-minded or willing to talk.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:02 am

I am pretty sure islamophobia is real and it looks like this:

[Multiple pictures of anti-Islamic protest removed]
Last edited by retrofuturist on Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: [Multiple pictures of anti-Islamic protest removed]

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:05 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:I am pretty sure islamophobia is real and it looks like this:

[Multiple pictures of anti-Islamic protest removed]

That's opposition. I'm not seeing a phobia. You see the same stuff from new-atheists in relation to Christianity. Is that "Christianphobic"?

Once again, a rational fear is by definition not a phobia
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:10 am

clw_uk wrote: That's opposition. I'm not seeing a phobia.

Because apparently, you don't know what islamophoba means
clw_uk wrote:You see the same stuff from new-atheists in relation to Christianity. Is that "Christianphobic"?
Of course, yes.
clw_uk wrote:Once again, a rational fear is by definition not a phobia
1. Can you please do me a favor and get a definition of islamophobia from a dictionary?

2. Claiming Isis = Islam, Islam=brainswashed political cult, not a religion, Islam=crime against humanity, doest that look rational to you?

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 am

Buddha Vacana
Because apparently, you don't know what islamophoba means
Islam - An abarahamic religion based upon the teachings of Muhammad

Phobia - An irrational fear

Once again, being afraid of Islam doesn't = a phobia, much less being critical of it.
Of course, yes.
Ridiculous nonsense. There are legitimate reasons to fear Christianity as well, although much less so than Islam

Can you please do me a favor and get a definition of islamophobia from a dictionary?
Why? Its a nonsense term. It gained traction from the Runnymede report "Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All" (1997), where there were even doubts about the accuracy of the term by the authors. Anti-muslim prejudice is more accurate. Islamophobia is bunk.

Islamophilia seems to be a real phenomenon however, mostly for those on the left.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:36 am

Buddha Vacana
Claiming Isis = Islam
ISIS is a form of Islam. Its actually pretty close to the ideology of Saudi Arabia and the doctrine spewed out by Al-Azhar University, which is somewhat of an authority on Sunni Islam (the university won't even condemn them as heretics).


Islam=brainswashed political cult
Needs more nuanced, but it does have a cultish and political dimension to it
not a religion
Obviously ridiculous, but based upon the idea that Islam is also a political ideology. It largely is.

Islam=crime against humanity
On the whole, yes.

doest that look rational to you?
On the whole, yes.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:45 am

clw_uk wrote:Personally I disagree with the word "Islamophobia". There is nothing "phobic" about fearing Islam, at least in its dominant forms, and all to often the word is used to merely smear an opponent and to shut down criticism of Islam, thus shielding the religion (which is dangerous).
Often 'phobias' have merits & often they have no merits. For example, my two best most reliable friends are homosexual. They are the two best neighbourhood people I know. But some people do have genuine & expected fears of homosexuality. For example, most parents do not have children with the hope that their child is homosexual. But if their child eventually is homosexual, they generally must learn to accept this difference. I think it is not particularly useful to get stuck on words such as Islamphobia & Homophobia. For me, its not Buddhist. Its just more of this plague & disease of IDENTITARIAN politics that divides the world and creates wars. Buddhism teaches to examine good & bad rather than get stuck identity. Lots of things things have a good side & a bad side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCaveVzlabQ
clw_uk wrote:Criticism and opposition to Islam is fine in my opinion. To be so doesn't necessarily mean being anti-Muslim (another confusion) or that the person is racist (Islam isn't a race). As Buddhists I feel we can be critical of bad ideas, whilst showing compassion and good will to individuals.
The Buddha said to his seven year old son: "He who tells a deliberate lie, there is no evil he cannot do". How many proven lies were told about 9/11 & Iraq by Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Netanyahu, etc? Millions of Muslims have been killed since 9/11 even though they had zero relationship to Al Qaeda. Try to imagine believing 'Islam' did not do 9/11 but some other political agenda did 9/11. Do you think your Islamophobia would change? Ajahn Chah used to teach about how bad you feel when a person insults you but later, when you are advised the insulter has a mental illness, how relieved you feel. Don't you ever ask why Britain & the USA sell $$billions$$ of weapons to Saudi Arabia but it was/is Saudi Arabian Wahhabi that Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc, follow? Are you actually aware Great Britain started Saudi Arabia and the CIA started the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Taliban & these other extremist groups? When I travelled in Islamic countries it was awesome. My two homosexual friends had a great holiday in Iran recently. Maybe we need to travel more & watch TV less.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:50 am

Lets to back to basics.
Islam:

The religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/islam


phobia:

An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
‘she suffered from a phobia about birds’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/phobia


I'm not a fan of identity politics, but as a gay man I have a lot to fear from Islam. Compared to other religions, it is lacking. Everywhere that Islam dominates becomes Hell.
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Reason: Response to now deleted ad-hominem argumentation edited out
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:37 am

Greetings,

This topic has been removed briefly for discussion amongst staff on how to proceed.

We have removed:

- Some overtly inflammatory discussion which did not advance the actual topic of whether Islamophobia is a misnomer
- Ad-hominem argumentation and baseless accusations against other members

Moving forward:

- This topic will be in the Hot Topics (News) section. As such, posts will need to be approved by a moderator before they appear publicly. This is to stop the topic spiralling out of control again before moderators have an opportunity to attend to it.
- Please keep to the topic... Is Islamophobia is a misnomer or not? As Buddhists can we be critical of certain ideas, whilst showing compassion and good will to those who hold them.

:focus:

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"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:47 am

An acceptable compromise for this page. Nice to see sensible management


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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:06 am

clw_uk wrote:Lets to back to basics.
Islam:

The religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/islam


phobia:

An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
‘she suffered from a phobia about birds’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/phobia


Why not just look up "Islamophobia" in the dictionary if you want to know what the word means?

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:18 am

clw_uk wrote:Lets to back to basics.

. Everywhere that Islam dominates becomes Hell.
I lived in Thailand for over 6 years And have been living in a muslim country in the Gulf for 5.
Overall the Gulf is a way nicer place I would say.


Occasionally woken up by the loudspeakers from the mosque- I did prefer the tone of the Thai temple speakers - but god they were noisy (fortunately far from where I slept except for brief periods).

The thing is muslim countries (in the Gulf ) run well. All the benefits of civilisation are readily available***, more-so than western countries by and large. NO tax at all on anything, and necessities like fuel, water and power all heavily subsidized(to such an extent that they don't even factor) I spend 5 times more on coffee than on all of those combined.

The people are urbane, extremely well travelled, speak good English - and are great supporters of the West. ISIS is of course banned- and considered as mental as the KKK is in the west.

Muslims are, by the rules of the religion, mostly generous to the poor.
I have only had one attempt at conversion where someone I didn't know- and who looked a bit odd, offered me a pamphlet on Islam..

Which brings me to my next comparison- with Christianity: the Bible has this section
One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer. Aliens as well as citizens, when they blaspheme the Name, shall be put to death. Leviticus 24:16
and this:
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them Leviticus 20:13
And it was only a few hundred years ago when they were burning heretics at the cross. Christians these days completely ignore this stuff - and in fact so do virtually all Muslims when it comes to the harsh passages in their holy books. It is true that a small section of muslims take it seriously but it is just as likely that in the future all muslims will reject/intepret those parts as much as christians now do



***Alcohol is prohibited- but that is fine by me.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:33 am

RobertK
The thing is muslim countries (in the Gulf ) run well. All the benefits of civilisation are readily available***, more-so than western countries by and large. NO tax at all on anything, and necessities like fuel, water and power all heavily subsidized(to such an extent that they don't even factor) I spend 5 times more on coffee than on all of those combined.
I love how you define good in terms of low taxes and material wealth. What matters political oppression and human rights abuses if one has no taxes and low fuel prices?

The people are urbane, extremely well travelled, speak good English - and are great supporters of the West. ISIS is of course banned- and considered as mental as the KKK is in the west.
Whilst their states funds terrorists and extremists.

Which brings me to my next comparison- with Christianity: the Bible has this section
The famous "whataboutism" deflection. Firstly I can sit here with you all day and criticise biblical passages. At the end of it we can agree and still have not said anything about Islam. But secondly there is a difference. Christianity has been forced to reform on the whole. Islam hasn't on the whole and is stuck in medieval brutality and regressivness. What's more, I doubt that Islam can ever be reformed like Christianity was. It's shown itself to be more immobile.

But, at least those taxes are low and fuel is cheap ;)
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:42 am

I think that most things that are considered phobias, aren't examples of phobias (ie. fears) at all, but of plain old hatred. It's just more politically correct to call those things fears.

Besides, compounds with "miso-" (meaning 'hatred') are harder to make than compounds with "-phobia."

What's actually going on is misoislamia, misohomosexualia, to make a few new, but more adequate words.

P.S.
I googled -- "misoislamia" actually exists already.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:06 am

So, I am going to provide again definitions of the terms from mainstream dictionaries:

Phobia as a word
Merriam-Webster: an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation

Oxford dictionary: An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

The free dictionary:
pho·bi·a (fō′bē-ə) n.
1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.
Phobia as a suffix:
Wikitionary
Suffix -phobia
1. Used to form nouns meaning fear of a specific thing. e.g. claustrophobia
2. (analogy) Used to form nouns meaning hate, dislike, contempt, or repression of a specific thing. e.g. homophobia
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-phobia
Islamophobia:
Merriam-Webster: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

Oxford dictionary: Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

The free dictionary:
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə)
1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:19 am

I find the "phobia" part of this, as used in political discourse, very interesting. When I was growing up in the UK in the 1960s, I only ever remember the term "phobia" being used in its clinical sense. Claustrophobia, agoraphobia, arachnophobia, etc., and whole lists of really obscure ones such as triskaidekaphobia (irrational fear of the number 13).

During the 1970s, the term "homophobia" moved from its clinical setting to a political one. As well as meaning (an extremely rare) irrational fear of homosexuals, it started to mean a dislike of or prejudice towards gays, a willingness to say bad things about them or harm them. I remember a clinical psychologist making a joking reference to this change of use at the time. He said that one clinical test for arachnophobia was the inability of a sufferer to keep their hand in a big sweet-jar which contained a 1cm. spider. He wondered if "homophobes" could put their hand into a sweet-jar containing a gay man.

"Homophobia" thus became a way of labelling those who had particular attitudes to gays, and so we also had "homophobic" language and institutions and texts, etc. There was no need to coin or adapt similar phrases in the case of other political struggles; we already had "racism" and "sexism" or "misogyny". "Islamophobia" followed, along with "Transphobia", "Biphobia", "Christophobia", etc. We've always had "Xenophobia", but this seems to have been given a new lease of life. The adaptation of the term "phobia" was probably due in part to the medicalisation of everyday life; lots of common conditions have acquired clinical names and are now treated by doctors and psychologists. I think it is also to do with wishing to show how there is something wrong - often clinically wrong - with those who have opinions or exhibit behaviours we find objectionable. This is especially so in a polity or community in which identity politics flourishes. If a person brutally attacks me, or even expresses animosity towards me, then that's always difficult for me. Especially so if it makes me think that they might have a point, that there might be something unpleasant or wrong about me. But if I can see my attacker as "SamVaraphobic", then it pushes the problem on to them. I'm OK, but they are not OK.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:29 am

..................
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:30 am

clw_uk wrote:...as a gay man I have a lot to fear from Islam.
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
The Iran–Iraq War was an armed conflict between Iran and Iraq lasting from 22 September 1980, when Iraq invaded Iran, to August 1988...The conflict has been compared to World War I in terms of the tactics used, including large-scale trench warfare with barbed wire stretched across trenches, manned machine gun posts, bayonet charges, "human wave attacks," extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraq, and later deliberate attacks on civilian targets. The world powers United States and the Soviet Union, together with France and most Arab countries provided support for Iraq, while Iran as a Persian country was largely isolated....Iraqi casualties are estimated at 105,000–200,000 killed...According to Iranian government sources, the war cost Iran an estimated 200,000–220,000 killed...
Various scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War estimated up to one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time. Wikipedia
A systematic cross-sectional field survey and non-structured search was carried out over fourteen provinces in six Libyan regions, representing the primary sites of the armed conflict between February 2011 and February 2012. A total of 21,490 (0.5%) persons were killed, 19,700 (0.47%) injured and 435,000 (10.33%) displaced.
The UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) estimated at 435,000 Libya’s population of internally displaced people.
...it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own.... Sam Harris
clw_uk wrote:Compared to other religions, it is lacking. Everywhere that Islam dominates becomes Hell.

Evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:31 am

Buddha Vacana -

Lefties are too easy. This will get repetitive, but i guess we learn that way.
Merriam-Webster: an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation
Fearing Islam isn't "exaggerated", "inexplicable" or "illogical". At least not if you are gay.

Oxford dictionary: An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
Once again, it's not irrational to fear Islam.

The free dictionary:
pho·bi·a (fō′bē-ə) n.
1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
So it's abnormal to fear Islam? Is that your argument? If not, let's discard it.

"Irrational"

Is it irrational for gays to fear Islam? I think not, let's discard this definition (running out of ammo here buddy)

A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.
That seems rather weak. Strongly disliking something doesn't suggest a phobia to me, unless you admit you have Naziphobia? Do you?

Wikitionary
Suffix -phobia
1. Used to form nouns meaning fear of a specific thing. e.g. claustrophobia
2. (analogy) Used to form nouns meaning hate, dislike, contempt, or repression of a specific thing. e.g. homophobia
Firstly "wiki"? Really? For a dictionary definition?

Secondly, by this definition are you Naziphobic?

See phobia means an irrational fear. It's rational to fear Nazism, and the same for Islam.


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