Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

Once again, being anti-Islam doesn't equal being anti-Muslim. The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure, but Muslims interact with it in different ways. Some are extreme, others Liberal. Therefore you should treat each person as an individual and evaluate on a case by case basis. You can do all that whilst recognising the horrors of Islam.

I do realise however that this may be difficult for leftists, as they are accustomed to seeing groups instead of the individual. This may be why leftists have trouble distinquising between being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. Interesting thought.
I don't find Islam horrific.

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 am

BasementBuddhist
I don't find Islam horrific.
Nothing horrific in the ideology at all? Not a smidge? Perhaps Islam is the religion of peace and love after all. The anti-gay persecution and anti-women elements must be western lies. Then again, maybe not.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:47 am

BasementBuddhist

Oh, and let's not forget Muhammad. Do you see a noble character there? What do you think of his rather, shall we say, peculiar sexual appetites? I know Buddha wouldn't have approved. Where do you stand friend?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:53 am

Greetings Craig, all,

:focus:

The matter of whether Islam is an existential threat, and thus, something to be legitimately feared, is on topic.

Mohammad's proclivities are not.

You gave good advice earlier about differentiating views from individuals... it would be good if you could bring this discipline to your own contributions.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:12 am

The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
...
And muslims had slave trade going on for thousands of years with africa, long before the europeans. The otoman empire also enslaved half of europe including my country. My country was rented to whoever payed the most and then exploited so that the renter could make a profit. Serfdom was abolished in eastern europe in the same year as american blacks got out of slavery.


What I wrote above and everything you wrote in that whole messages are not arguments, they are called "whataboutism". You can go on with whataboutism forever and ever and prove any point of view that you want, selectively picking up pieces of history. This was used by URSS during the cold war. US and other western countries would bring up the problem of being a brutal dictatorship, being dead poor, not giving 2 cents about human rights, etc. - and URSS would respond "hey, but what about slavery ? What about Guatemala ?". The modern version is the standard "but what about Iraq ?"

This is a shameful tactic used by people finding themselves on the losing side of a debate. When problems about the functioning of democracy or lack of human rights are brought up, the losing side can just start selectively enumerating historical events relating to the accusing side, like that could somehow explain or excuse the bad actions they are doing in the present.

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig, all,

:focus:

The matter of whether Islam is an existential threat, and thus, something to be legitimately feared, is on topic.

Mohammad's proclivities are not.

You gave good advice earlier about differentiating views from individuals... it would be good if you could bring this discipline to your own contributions.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)

I have to disagree. Criticising the founder of a religious tradition is just as important as criticising the ideology that he/she expounded. If Buddha found a religious leader wanting, he would say so. I find Muhammad wanting. That extends to his sexual pass times.

However I realise how certain people can't handle this criticism, which I shall not mention. Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:39 am

Greetings Craig,

I'm reticent to contribute to this discussion in anything other an a moderation capacity, so please see what I'm about to say solely as an elaboration upon the moderator guidance I provided in my previous post...

The suttas explain that from Right View, comes Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action etc.
They also explain that from Wrong View, comes Wrong Thought, Wrong Speech, Wrong Action etc.

Thus...

If the view of Islam leads one to such atrocities, then those atrocities can be addressed through a critique of Islam.
If the view of Islam does not lead one to such atrocities, then those atrocities are not directly relevant to a critique on Islam.
Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
Moreover, if that is what the topic is about, then it's on-topic.

It's not that mention of his proclivities is prohibited on this forum - it's that unless it's directly on topic, it's likely to produce more heat than light... and in doing so, it makes it harder to moderators to keep topics on topic.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

I'm reticent to contribute to this discussion in anything other an a moderation capacity, so please see what I'm about to say solely as an elaboration upon the moderator guidance I provided in my previous post...

The suttas explain that from Right View, comes Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action etc.
They also explain that from Wrong View, comes Wrong Thought, Wrong Speech, Wrong Action etc.

Thus...

If the view of Islam leads one to such atrocities, then those atrocities can be addressed through a critique of Islam.
If the view of Islam does not lead one to such atrocities, then those atrocities are not directly relevant to a critique on Islam.
Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
Moreover, if that is what the topic is about, then it's on-topic.

It's not that mention of his proclivities is prohibited on this forum - it's that unless it's directly on topic, it's likely to produce more heat than light... and in doing so, it makes it harder to moderators to keep topics on topic.

Metta,
Paul. :)
So I can make a new post discussing the topic?
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Garrib » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:59 am

IMO "what aboutism" is acceptable in certain circumstances - when someone is consistently singling out a particular group for criticism, on grounds that could be applied to other groups as well (but for whatever reason, those groups are not being targeted), this might indicate that the person doing the criticism has a certain bias/prejudice, which perhaps they themselves do not recognize.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:00 am

Greetings Craig,

If you can actually make a meaningful and beneficial discussion topic relating to it, then yes.

Or alternatively, find an existing topic where he has been mentioned and continue from there.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:02 am

clw_uk wrote:Perhaps Islam is the religion of peace and love after all.
Things like sexual promiscuity are, at least to me, unrelated to 'peace & love'. They are bondage in Buddhism.
clw_uk wrote:The anti-gay persecution and anti-women elements must be western lies. Then again, maybe not.
Tibetan Buddhism is historically anti-gay. It was only recently we had to sort out the non-Buddhist anti-gay views of the Dalai Lama. Each three of the Abrahamic religions are anti-gay, however Islam, at least according to the Koran, is the most lenient, given it is actually silent on homosexuality; although the later Muslims wrote Hadith, seeming to follow Judaic law, about homosexuality. I think it would be quite naive to assume homosexuality did not exist during the height of the cosmopolitanism character of the Islamic Empire (however, it would be been practiced discretely). Traditionally, Muslims can be quite open & lewd about sex, such as in the writings of Rumi.

As for women, Islam treats women like Buddhist bhikkhunis, which is not anti-women but anti-sexual-exhibitionist. I think the flaw in your arguments are, just as erroneously equating capitalism with freedom, you seem to equate female sex-exhibitionism with women. In Buddhism, the following is chanted everyday by female bhikkhunis about their use of clothing.

Considering it thoughtfully, I use the robe:

simply to counteract cold,
to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles;

simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.
Image
clw_uk wrote:Oh, and let's not forget Muhammad. Do you see a noble character there? What do you think of his rather, shall we say, peculiar sexual appetites? I know Buddha wouldn't have approved. Where do you stand friend?
There were wives of Muhammad (PBUH), particularly Aisha, who became very politically powerful and even lead a military battle. In the Buddhist suttas, wealthy or influential men had many wives, but generally in a family environment, similar to Muhammad (PBUH). Often gay men & eunuchs worked in the harems, according to some Islamic reports. Often harsh critics of Islam using the tenuous anti-women argument are against sexual morality & are in favour of sexual promiscuity. In other words, there is no objective truth Islam is anti-women because Islam actually believes it is pro-women. In Buddhism, the word 'freedom' or 'liberty' means 'freedom from defilement (kilesa)' rather than freedom to engage in defilement. My two gay friends have been together for over 40 years. They respect relationships & sexual boundaries. They are ordinary members of our community who help old people, take care of children, walk people's dogs when they are on holidays, etc. They know they know how to behave respectfully towards people in different cultures. Due to their virtue, they have travelled enjoyably in Muslim countries. While Buddhism does not discriminate against gay people, Buddhism does hope both gay & non-gay people alike, like my two friends, live according to the five precepts (rather than promote sexual heedlessness & promiscuity). If gay & non-gay people transgress the five precepts, Buddhism does not really support or endorse that. In Taiwan, many Buddhists were against gay marriage legislation. There is nothing in Buddhism that is especially pro-gay. Buddhism treats all people the same and says all people are heirs to their kamma. Being gay does not offer any special privileges or entitlements under the law of kamma in Buddhism.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:15 am

Islamophobia is a false concept

It is not uncommon for muslims to be victims of discrimination. Any form of discrimination against an individual based on which religious group one belongs to is wrong. It is so obvious that I didn't even feel like I needed to mention that but these days people are quick to misunderstand.
In recent years the term 'Islamophobia' has appeared in western media to describe hate and bigotry against Muslims. I only wish a better term was used instead of the term Islamophobia as the term is also used on those that criticize the teachings of Islam (without any hatred or bigotry).
There are several reasons why Islamophobia is a false loaded word.

1. A phobia is an irrational fear or hatred against something. But we can rationally criticize the teachings of Islam which is not consistent with the theory of evolution.

2. The word 'Islamophobia' as a term tends to pin down any opposing reasonable argument made against Islam as a form of hate or bigotry. It tries to stigmatize individuals who make reasonable criticisms against its teachings even when it is not motivated by hate.

3. Islam is a religion, not a race. One can change one's religion, one can not change one's race. Considering criticism of Islam as a form of racism is not only incorrect but it is also insulting to those who are genuine victims of racism.

4. We shouldn't assume that just because a set of ideas have the status of a religion that it becomes elevated above criticism. A critique of communism or fascism would not be labeled as 'communisophobia' or 'fascisophobia'. Likewise Islam can also be subject to criticism just like any other system of ideas.

5. We also shouldn't assume that Islam has a special privilege over other religions not to be criticized. There is plenty of literature out there which criticises and makes insults out of Christianity yet none of that gets called Christianophobia. Likewise Islam should not be considered as an exception.

In conclusion Islamophobia is a political false word designed to silence any genuine criticism of the teachings of Islam and to falsely associate it with hate speech.

The word 'islamophobia' is a propaganda tool which should be recognized as such and it should be abolished from rational discourse.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
In recent years the term 'Islamophobia' has appeared in western media to describe hate and bigotry against Muslims.
To me, Islamophobia is a term used by left-wingers to cover the crimes of left-wingers such as Obama & Hillary. While Obama & Hillary arranged the murder of thousands, even millions, of Muslims, including women, they preached the opposite. 'Islamophobia' is left-wing cover for right-wing crimes.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
I only wish a better term was used instead of the term Islamophobia as the term is also used on those that criticize the teachings of Islam (without any hatred or bigotry).

Islam is not anything of significance or relevance to support criticism. The violence in the world attributed to 'Islam' appears mostly the creation of the US government.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
There are several reasons why Islamophobia is a false loaded word.
OK. Let's hear them.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
1. A phobia is an irrational fear or hatred against something. But we can rationally criticise the teachings of Islam which is not consistent with the theory if evolution.
Imo, it is certainly irrational to fear creationist religions or ideas about reincarnation. To fear creationism means to fear Christianity & Judaism also.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
2. The word 'Islamophobia' as a term tends to pin down any opposing reasonable argument made against Islam as a form of hate or bigotry. It tries to stigmatise individuals who make reasonable criticisms against its teachings even when it is not motivated by hate.
Sure. But this is not Islamic in origin but has its origin in the same American left-wing ideology that stigmatises with misogynist, antisemitic, etc.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
3. Islam is a religion, not a race. One can change one's religion, one can not change one's race. Considering criticism of Islam as a form of racism is not only incorrect but it is also insulting to those who are genuine victims of racism.
The same as 'antisemitism' construes a religion into a race? Regardless, the most important matter is Muslims are people; are human beings; the majority being good people warranting not only metta but also mudita (i.e., appreciation for their good qualities).
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
4. I shouldn't assume that just because a set of ideas have the status of a religion that it becomes elevated above criticism. A critique of communism or fascism would not be labelled as 'communisophobia' or 'fascisophobia'. Likewise Islam can also be subject to criticism just like any other system of ideas.
Sure. But I think your post here does reflect a genuine "phobia" because the majority of Muslims are lovely people.


Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
5. I also shouldn't assume that Islam has a special privilege over other religions not to be criticised. There is plenty of literature out there which criticizes and makes insults out of Christianity yet none of that gets called Christianophobia. Likewise Islam should not be considered as an exception.
What about Judaism?
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
In conclusion Islamophobia is a political false word designed to silence any genuine criticism of the teachings of Islam and to falsely associate it with hate speech. The word 'islamophobia' is a propaganda tool which should be recognized as such and it should be abolished from rational discourse.
To me, Islamophobia is certainly a propaganda tool used by left-wingers to cover the crimes of left-wingers such as Obama & Hillary. While Obama & Hillary arranged the murder of thousands, even millions, of Muslims, including women, they preached the opposite. 'Islamophobia' is left-wing cover for right-wing crimes.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:00 am

Dalai Lama Says Terrorists Have No Religion


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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Islamophobia is a False Concept by Ontologistics

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