Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:02 am

clw_uk wrote:Perhaps Islam is the religion of peace and love after all.
Things like sexual promiscuity are, at least to me, unrelated to 'peace & love'. They are bondage in Buddhism.
clw_uk wrote:The anti-gay persecution and anti-women elements must be western lies. Then again, maybe not.
Tibetan Buddhism is historically anti-gay. It was only recently we had to sort out the non-Buddhist anti-gay views of the Dalai Lama. Each three of the Abrahamic religions are anti-gay, however Islam, at least according to the Koran, is the most lenient, given it is actually silent on homosexuality; although the later Muslims wrote Hadith, seeming to follow Judaic law, about homosexuality. I think it would be quite naive to assume homosexuality did not exist during the height of the cosmopolitanism character of the Islamic Empire (however, it would be been practiced discretely). Traditionally, Muslims can be quite open & lewd about sex, such as in the writings of Rumi.

As for women, Islam treats women like Buddhist bhikkhunis, which is not anti-women but anti-sexual-exhibitionist. I think the flaw in your arguments are, just as erroneously equating capitalism with freedom, you seem to equate female sex-exhibitionism with women. In Buddhism, the following is chanted everyday by female bhikkhunis about their use of clothing.

Considering it thoughtfully, I use the robe:

simply to counteract cold,
to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles;

simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.
Image
clw_uk wrote:Oh, and let's not forget Muhammad. Do you see a noble character there? What do you think of his rather, shall we say, peculiar sexual appetites? I know Buddha wouldn't have approved. Where do you stand friend?
There were wives of Muhammad (PBUH), particularly Aisha, who became very politically powerful and even lead a military battle. In the Buddhist suttas, wealthy or influential men had many wives, but generally in a family environment, similar to Muhammad (PBUH). Often gay men & eunuchs worked in the harems, according to some Islamic reports. Often harsh critics of Islam using the tenuous anti-women argument are against sexual morality & are in favour of sexual promiscuity. In other words, there is no objective truth Islam is anti-women because Islam actually believes it is pro-women. In Buddhism, the word 'freedom' or 'liberty' means 'freedom from defilement (kilesa)' rather than freedom to engage in defilement. My two gay friends have been together for over 40 years. They respect relationships & sexual boundaries. They are ordinary members of our community who help old people, take care of children, walk people's dogs when they are on holidays, etc. They know they know how to behave respectfully towards people in different cultures. Due to their virtue, they have travelled enjoyably in Muslim countries. While Buddhism does not discriminate against gay people, Buddhism does hope both gay & non-gay people alike, like my two friends, live according to the five precepts (rather than promote sexual heedlessness & promiscuity). If gay & non-gay people transgress the five precepts, Buddhism does not really support or endorse that. In Taiwan, many Buddhists were against gay marriage legislation. There is nothing in Buddhism that is especially pro-gay. Buddhism treats all people the same and says all people are heirs to their kamma. Being gay does not offer any special privileges or entitlements under the law of kamma in Buddhism.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:15 am

Islamophobia is a false concept

It is not uncommon for muslims to be victims of discrimination. Any form of discrimination against an individual based on which religious group one belongs to is wrong. It is so obvious that I didn't even feel like I needed to mention that but these days people are quick to misunderstand.
In recent years the term 'Islamophobia' has appeared in western media to describe hate and bigotry against Muslims. I only wish a better term was used instead of the term Islamophobia as the term is also used on those that criticize the teachings of Islam (without any hatred or bigotry).
There are several reasons why Islamophobia is a false loaded word.

1. A phobia is an irrational fear or hatred against something. But we can rationally criticize the teachings of Islam which is not consistent with the theory of evolution.

2. The word 'Islamophobia' as a term tends to pin down any opposing reasonable argument made against Islam as a form of hate or bigotry. It tries to stigmatize individuals who make reasonable criticisms against its teachings even when it is not motivated by hate.

3. Islam is a religion, not a race. One can change one's religion, one can not change one's race. Considering criticism of Islam as a form of racism is not only incorrect but it is also insulting to those who are genuine victims of racism.

4. We shouldn't assume that just because a set of ideas have the status of a religion that it becomes elevated above criticism. A critique of communism or fascism would not be labeled as 'communisophobia' or 'fascisophobia'. Likewise Islam can also be subject to criticism just like any other system of ideas.

5. We also shouldn't assume that Islam has a special privilege over other religions not to be criticized. There is plenty of literature out there which criticises and makes insults out of Christianity yet none of that gets called Christianophobia. Likewise Islam should not be considered as an exception.

In conclusion Islamophobia is a political false word designed to silence any genuine criticism of the teachings of Islam and to falsely associate it with hate speech.

The word 'islamophobia' is a propaganda tool which should be recognized as such and it should be abolished from rational discourse.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
In recent years the term 'Islamophobia' has appeared in western media to describe hate and bigotry against Muslims.
To me, Islamophobia is a term used by left-wingers to cover the crimes of left-wingers such as Obama & Hillary. While Obama & Hillary arranged the murder of thousands, even millions, of Muslims, including women, they preached the opposite. 'Islamophobia' is left-wing cover for right-wing crimes.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
I only wish a better term was used instead of the term Islamophobia as the term is also used on those that criticize the teachings of Islam (without any hatred or bigotry).

Islam is not anything of significance or relevance to support criticism. The violence in the world attributed to 'Islam' appears mostly the creation of the US government.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
There are several reasons why Islamophobia is a false loaded word.
OK. Let's hear them.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
1. A phobia is an irrational fear or hatred against something. But we can rationally criticise the teachings of Islam which is not consistent with the theory if evolution.
Imo, it is certainly irrational to fear creationist religions or ideas about reincarnation. To fear creationism means to fear Christianity & Judaism also.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
2. The word 'Islamophobia' as a term tends to pin down any opposing reasonable argument made against Islam as a form of hate or bigotry. It tries to stigmatise individuals who make reasonable criticisms against its teachings even when it is not motivated by hate.
Sure. But this is not Islamic in origin but has its origin in the same American left-wing ideology that stigmatises with misogynist, antisemitic, etc.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
3. Islam is a religion, not a race. One can change one's religion, one can not change one's race. Considering criticism of Islam as a form of racism is not only incorrect but it is also insulting to those who are genuine victims of racism.
The same as 'antisemitism' construes a religion into a race? Regardless, the most important matter is Muslims are people; are human beings; the majority being good people warranting not only metta but also mudita (i.e., appreciation for their good qualities).
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
4. I shouldn't assume that just because a set of ideas have the status of a religion that it becomes elevated above criticism. A critique of communism or fascism would not be labelled as 'communisophobia' or 'fascisophobia'. Likewise Islam can also be subject to criticism just like any other system of ideas.
Sure. But I think your post here does reflect a genuine "phobia" because the majority of Muslims are lovely people.


Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
5. I also shouldn't assume that Islam has a special privilege over other religions not to be criticised. There is plenty of literature out there which criticizes and makes insults out of Christianity yet none of that gets called Christianophobia. Likewise Islam should not be considered as an exception.
What about Judaism?
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am
In conclusion Islamophobia is a political false word designed to silence any genuine criticism of the teachings of Islam and to falsely associate it with hate speech. The word 'islamophobia' is a propaganda tool which should be recognized as such and it should be abolished from rational discourse.
To me, Islamophobia is certainly a propaganda tool used by left-wingers to cover the crimes of left-wingers such as Obama & Hillary. While Obama & Hillary arranged the murder of thousands, even millions, of Muslims, including women, they preached the opposite. 'Islamophobia' is left-wing cover for right-wing crimes.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:00 am

Dalai Lama Says Terrorists Have No Religion


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Dharmasherab
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Islamophobia is a False Concept by Ontologistics

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:01 pm

This is an article by Ali Sina (pseudonym) who is an Iranian ex-muslim on Islamophobia

"Islamophobia" is ad hominem

This is Sara Haider who is an ex-muslim of Bangladeshi origin exposing the myth of Islamophobia and the double standard of the liberal left

The "islamophobia" narrative, free speech & the Left's double standard on islam - Sarah Haider

Upeksha
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Upeksha » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:36 pm

I find this thread extraordinary.

It may be the case that x charges y with Islamophobia without a true basis. i.e. y does not actually fear and hate Muslims or the Islamic faith, but may be making political arguments about terrorism etc.

So, sure, I grant you that.

However, it does not follow that there are no people who fear and hate Muslims and the Islamic faith. For example, there are so many documented cases where I come from of women wearing the hijab being spat on or verbally abused for the mere fact of identifying as a Muslim. If that is not Islamophobia, what then is it? Metta?

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:07 am

not nonsense. big problem as well.
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binocular
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:55 am

Upeksha wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:36 pm
For example, there are so many documented cases where I come from of women wearing the hijab being spat on or verbally abused for the mere fact of identifying as a Muslim. If that is not Islamophobia, what then is it? Metta?
What were those women actually told?

Where I come from, people sometimes criticize others severely, but it is for being different, for being abnormal, for not fitting in, not specifically for being Muslim, Buddhist, wearing dreadlocks etc.

Upeksha
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Upeksha » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:55 am
Upeksha wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:36 pm
For example, there are so many documented cases where I come from of women wearing the hijab being spat on or verbally abused for the mere fact of identifying as a Muslim. If that is not Islamophobia, what then is it? Metta?
What were those women actually told?

Where I come from, people sometimes criticize others severely, but it is for being different, for being abnormal, for not fitting in, not specifically for being Muslim, Buddhist, wearing dreadlocks etc.
What is the interest in denying the fact that some people do actually hate Muslims? If someone verbally abuses and spits on a Muslim woman in a hijab who is in every respect a peaceful person, what is the motivation for trying to assert "the only plausible motivation for this abuse is a generalised notion of difference?"

It really is absurd.

Next I'll be hearing about how the holocaust really had nothing to do with Jews, but rather, was just an abstract intolerance which expressed itself in a particular configuration.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:35 am

Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am
What is the interest in denying the fact that some people do actually hate Muslims?
Uh. Noone's denying that.
If someone verbally abuses and spits on a Muslim woman in a hijab who is in every respect a peaceful person, what is the motivation for trying to assert "the only plausible motivation for this abuse is a generalised notion of difference?"
Uh again. Nobody did that.
I'm saying that sometimes, people are abused for reasons other than those that they (or their defenders) think they are being abused for. I think it's important to discern why exactly someone is being abused, as only that way, effective countermeasures can be devised.

As a personal example: I once, after yet another difficult exchange, told a Christian "friend" that I don't like him. His reply was that I dislike him because he's telling the truth (about God and Jesus). That was not the case though. I disliked him because he didn't care about me and he didn't keep his promises to me. But he didn't care about that either. He just insisted in his preconceived notion that I, as an atheist, disliked him, a Christian, "because he was telling the truth about God". He presented himself as a martyr for his religion, when in fact I didn't dislike him because of his religion.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by alfa » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:52 am

Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:55 am
Upeksha wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:36 pm
For example, there are so many documented cases where I come from of women wearing the hijab being spat on or verbally abused for the mere fact of identifying as a Muslim. If that is not Islamophobia, what then is it? Metta?
What were those women actually told?

Where I come from, people sometimes criticize others severely, but it is for being different, for being abnormal, for not fitting in, not specifically for being Muslim, Buddhist, wearing dreadlocks etc.
What is the interest in denying the fact that some people do actually hate Muslims? If someone verbally abuses and spits on a Muslim woman in a hijab who is in every respect a peaceful person, what is the motivation for trying to assert "the only plausible motivation for this abuse is a generalised notion of difference?"

It really is absurd.

Next I'll be hearing about how the holocaust really had nothing to do with Jews, but rather, was just an abstract intolerance which expressed itself in a particular configuration.
There is Islamophobia in this world. But not every case of verbal or physical assault qualifies as Islamophobia. Sometimes, it could just be a misunderstanding, fight over personal issues, or any number of things unrelated to religion.

Upeksha
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Upeksha » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:17 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:35 am
Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am
What is the interest in denying the fact that some people do actually hate Muslims?
Uh. Noone's denying that.
If someone verbally abuses and spits on a Muslim woman in a hijab who is in every respect a peaceful person, what is the motivation for trying to assert "the only plausible motivation for this abuse is a generalised notion of difference?"
Uh again. Nobody did that.
I'm saying that sometimes, people are abused for reasons other than those that they (or their defenders) think they are being abused for. I think it's important to discern why exactly someone is being abused, as only that way, effective countermeasures can be devised.

As a personal example: I once, after yet another difficult exchange, told a Christian "friend" that I don't like him. His reply was that I dislike him because he's telling the truth (about God and Jesus). That was not the case though. I disliked him because he didn't care about me and he didn't keep his promises to me. But he didn't care about that either. He just insisted in his preconceived notion that I, as an atheist, disliked him, a Christian, "because he was telling the truth about God". He presented himself as a martyr for his religion, when in fact I didn't dislike him because of his religion.
I grant you that Islamophobia might sometimes be falsely imputed. I granted this earlier in the thread.

But "no one is denying that" - surely the very fact of this thread demonstrates that people manifestly are denying it. The very title of the thread proposes that Islamophobia might be a nonsense term, and many posts are clearly in the affirmative of that proposition.

And so it follows, that if someone comes on to this thread with examples that support that position, it looks rather a lot like an intention to deny it...does it not?

Upeksha
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Upeksha » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:19 pm

alfa wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:52 am
Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:55 am

What were those women actually told?

Where I come from, people sometimes criticize others severely, but it is for being different, for being abnormal, for not fitting in, not specifically for being Muslim, Buddhist, wearing dreadlocks etc.
What is the interest in denying the fact that some people do actually hate Muslims? If someone verbally abuses and spits on a Muslim woman in a hijab who is in every respect a peaceful person, what is the motivation for trying to assert "the only plausible motivation for this abuse is a generalised notion of difference?"

It really is absurd.

Next I'll be hearing about how the holocaust really had nothing to do with Jews, but rather, was just an abstract intolerance which expressed itself in a particular configuration.
There is Islamophobia in this world. But not every case of verbal or physical assault qualifies as Islamophobia. Sometimes, it could just be a misunderstanding, fight over personal issues, or any number of things unrelated to religion.
Sure. I'm not arguing that every instance of antagonism towards a Muslim person is unambiguously grounded in Islamophobia. I'm just saying - like you - that some are.

Ergo, it cannot be a nonsense term.

binocular
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:32 pm

Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:17 pm
But "no one is denying that" - surely the very fact of this thread demonstrates that people manifestly are denying it. The very title of the thread proposes that Islamophobia might be a nonsense term, and many posts are clearly in the affirmative of that proposition.

And so it follows, that if someone comes on to this thread with examples that support that position, it looks rather a lot like an intention to deny it...does it not?
Hm, I haven't thought of that, and the OP starts out with a question anyway.

Upeksha
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Upeksha » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:05 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:32 pm
Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:17 pm
But "no one is denying that" - surely the very fact of this thread demonstrates that people manifestly are denying it. The very title of the thread proposes that Islamophobia might be a nonsense term, and many posts are clearly in the affirmative of that proposition.

And so it follows, that if someone comes on to this thread with examples that support that position, it looks rather a lot like an intention to deny it...does it not?
Hm, I haven't thought of that, and the OP starts out with a question anyway.
The OP is pretty clear in denying that the term has any meaning. So I think the question framed by that poster is very much rhetorical.

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