The Buddha's Politics

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:18 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:59 am
Of course conservatives will argue with anything, but they lack compassion.
I would put that statement on the same level as claiming that someone who disagrees lacks compassion and is a terrible Buddhist.

The causes and conditions that I believe leads to such thinking, as well as a way to liberation, is suggested in
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=32035&p=475198#p474981

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:03 am

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:59 am
Of course conservatives will argue with anything, but they lack compassion.
I don't think the Buddha's politics involved believing one own side's self-serving propaganda about their nemeses, did it?

Do you think your false projections are compassionate? Are you following the Buddha's politics by doing so?

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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lyndon taylor
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am

I will never let myself be compassionate for wrong views!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:49 am

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am
I will never let myself be compassionate for wrong views!!
That's not what I asked, Lyndon, though it's an interesting Freudian slip.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:03 am
I don't think the Buddha's politics involved believing one own side's self-serving propaganda about their nemeses, did it?

Do you think your false projections are compassionate? Are you following the Buddha's politics by doing so?
Those are two rather loaded questions.
I think the Buddha's basic teachings were based on a skepticism about our own beliefs.
So the Buddha's politics might involve some "pointing out instructions" about possible self-serving propaganda. Especially about people we don't like.
We should be cautious about projections, false or otherwise, because the process tends towards misunderstanding.

The politics of compassion, on the other hand, would include compassion for "wrong views" ... including one's own.

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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:31 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am
I will never let myself be compassionate for wrong views!!
You must be very confident you know which are the right ones...
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:31 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am
I will never let myself be compassionate for wrong views!!
You must be very confident you know which are the right ones...
Yeah, when it comes to oppressing the poor, I'm pretty sure that is a wrong view!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:39 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:31 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am
I will never let myself be compassionate for wrong views!!
You must be very confident you know which are the right ones...
Yeah, when it comes to oppressing the poor, I'm pretty sure that is a wrong view!!
What are the causes of the oppression of the poor?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:43 am

greed, delusion, inhumanity
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Pseudobabble
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:43 am
greed, delusion, inhumanity
Can you tell me some policies which would help to eradicate those causes?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Grigoris
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:04 pm

Only an Amerikan could possibly consider the Democratic Party left-wing... :tongue:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:14 pm

This kind of bickering is exactly why this section is being closed down.

but let me pitch a clear idea that needs to be made transparent.

A Buddhist Political Party requires that people are moral, generous, honest, ecological, demilitarized, cooperative, compassionate, reverent.
A CONSTITUTION FOR LIVING wrote: For the lord of the land, the state leader or ruler-be he an emperor, king or administrator in general-there are the following qualities and principles of conduct:

A. Being endowed with the ten regal qualities: to have the ten qualities of a righteous ruler or king (raja-dhamma):

Dana: sharing with the populace; he is a benefactor in that he rules or works to give, not to take; he devotes himself to administering services and providing welfare and aid for the people to ensure their well-being, convenience and safety; he renders assistance to those in distress and difficulty and supports those who have done well.

Sila: maintaining good conduct; he is impeccable in conduct and restrained in actions and speech; he does only good actions and upholds his honor; he sets an example for the people, commands their respect and is free from any cause for contempt.

Pariccaga: working selflessly; he is capable of sacrificing personal comfort, even his own life, for the benefit of the people and the peace and stability of the country.

Ajjava: working honestly; he is honest and upholds the truth; he is free of deceit and upright in his dealings; he is sincere and does not deceive the people.

Maddava: deporting himself with gentleness and congeniality; his bearing is not arrogant, rude, harsh or conceited; he has nobility and dignity that are based on a polite and gentle manner, inspiring devotion and loyalty but not without awe.

Tapa: rejecting indulgence through austerity; he destroys defilements and cravings and does not allow them to control his mind; he can restrain his mind and does not allow it to become lost in sensual pleasure and debauchery; he is simple and regular in life-style, and dedicated to the fulfillment of duty.

Akkodha: adhering to reason, not anger; he is not given to fiery outbursts and does not make judgments or act out of anger, but has a heart of goodwill, suppressing anger; he judges and acts righteously with a mind that is subtle and calm.

Avihimsa: bringing tranquillity through nonviolence; he does not let his power go to his head or use it to repress his subjects; he is kind; he does not find a pretext for punishing a subject out of vindictiveness and hatred.

Khanti: overcoming difficulties with patience; he endures a heavy work load and perseveres in the face of tiredness; no matter how difficult or depressing the work may be, he does not give in; no matter how much he is provoked or ridiculed, or with whatever harsh and abrasive words, he does not despair; he refuses to abandon a task that is rightfully done.

Avirodhana: not doing that which strays from righteousness; he does not transgress the principles of public administration that are based on the welfare, happiness and righteousness of the people and the country; he does not oppose what the people rightfully desire; he does not stand in the way of those activities which are for the common good; he establishes himself firmly in righteousness, steadfast and unwavering in the face of pleasant and unpleasant words, gain and loss, desirable and undesirable conditions; he is firmly established in righteous principles and does not deviate from or subvert them-both in judicial terms, namely [the administration of] justice, and in regulatory terms, namely [the observation of] regulations, formalities and administrative principles, including good customs and traditions.
(J.V.378)

B. Performing the duties of a universal emperor: he performs the five duties of a supreme ruler, called the cakkavatti-vatta:

Dhammadhipateyya: holding the Dhamma supreme; he adheres to truth, righteousness, goodness, reason, principle and rightful rules and regulations as standards; he respects, upholds, favors and establishes himself in righteousness and practices accordingly.

Dhammikarakkha: providing righteous protection; he provides fair protection to all groups of people in the land, i.e., the royal household, the military, administrative officials, civil servants, academics and people of various occupations such as merchants and farmers, country people and inhabitants of the border provinces, monks and priests who uphold moral conduct, and even beasts and birds requiring conservation.

Ma adhammakara: prohibiting unrighteous actions; he arranges preventive and remedial measures, not allowing unrighteous actions, exploitation, oppression, corruption, or unrest to arise in the country; he encourages the people to establish themselves firmly in honesty and virtue and also establishes a system that excludes bad people and promotes good ones.

Dhananuppadana: distributing resources to the poor; he ensures that there are no poverty-stricken people in the land by, for example, arranging that all people have a chance to make an honest living.

Paripuccha: not failing to seek counsel; he seeks advancement in wisdom and virtue by having advisors who are learned and virtuous, who are morally upright and not heedless or self-indulgent, and who can help him to cultivate his wisdom and wholesome qualities; he approaches monks and wise men and queries them to seek knowledge, goodness and truth; he discusses various problems with them at regular and appropriate times so that he may examine and improve himself and carry out his duties rightfully, properly and so as to bring about true welfare and happiness.
(D.III. 61)

C. Effecting the royal benefactions: he supports the people, allowing them to live in unity and harmony, with the four raja-sangaha-vatthu (principles by which a king supports his people):

Sassamedha: shrewdness in promoting agriculture; he is skilled in agronomic policies and promotes agricultural activity which brings about bountiful crop yields.

Purisamedha: shrewdness in promoting government officials; he is clever at making policies for supporting government officials by, for example, encouraging honest and capable officials and providing them with adequate social benefits.

Sammapasa: bonding the people together; he assists the people with policies that support their livelihood by, for example, providing funds from which the poor may borrow to set themselves up in commerce or start business operations, thereby eliminating an economic disparity that is so wide as to cause rifts among the people.

Vajapeyya: impressive speech; he knows how to speak, clarify and advise; he takes an interest in greeting people of all levels and inquiring about their welfare; his speech is pleasant to the ear, worth listening to, reasoned, well-founded and useful; it leads the way to constructive action, to solution of problems, to increased harmony, and to mutual understanding, trust and respect.
(S.I.76)

D. Avoiding the biases: when an administrator is carrying out his functions, he should not allow the four biases, or deviations from righteousness, to interfere:

Chandagati: biased conduct on account of like
Dosagati: biased conduct on account of dislike
Mohagati: biased conduct on account of delusion or foolishness
Bhayagati: biased conduct on account of timidity and fear
None of today's political parties have these qualities. In fact, many of these qualities of a moral leader are opposed in favor of greed, immorality, selfishness, dishonesty, arrogance, decadence, divisiveness, warmongering, despairmongering, cheating the system, disrespect of Dhamma, violence citizenry and residents, lack of protection for the citizenry and residents, unrighteous conduct, stealing from citizens, ignoring advice of both clergy, professionals, experts and the citizenry, agricultural irresponsibility, pollution, promoting the wrong people for the job and rewarding bad behavior, base speech.

There is a lot of people here that are bringing their politics into the Dhamma instead of taking a good hard look at their political parties with a dhammic mindset. This is a bad idea. Let people take responsibility for their own unique views and moral character, but let none forget that the parties don't embody these views. And let us also be entirely honest when we speak of the US political parties, because Grigori brings up a really good point: The political parties of the USA do not in fact represent an enormous indivisible chasm that shows two extremely separate views. Aside from a few topics, both parties are the same in every way.

Let's be clear what both wings stand for:

Republican Democracy
Classical Liberalism
Capitalism
Obstructionism
Debt Debt Debt Debbity debt
Trade Deficits
War in the Middle East
Opposition to Single Payer Healthcare
Hatred of American Civil Liberties
Violation of Citizen's Privacy
Unlimited Spending
Party Lobbyists
Abuse of Pardon Power
Accepting Foreign Money for Political Favors
Accepting Subsidies from Taxpayers that don't represent their interests
Declarations of War without Congressional Approval
Restricted Access to the Press
Restriction of Ballot Access
Rejection of Open Primaries
Gerrymandering

The rest of the differences that exist are barely representative compared to what they have in common.

In the meantime let go of the notion that either parties are moral or acceptable and you will have an easier time getting along even if you disagree. We are brothers and sisters in the practice of the dhamma, let's agree that both parties have a lot of work to do before they ever come close to what the Buddha would have praised as a political system.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:26 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:14 pm
(J.V.378)
Please unpack these abbreviated references into URL's to English translations. Or at least use their full names.
The commentary is interesting but where is the quoted text coming from?

IMO the argument would be much stronger if the section beginning with " The political parties of the USA do not in fact represent an enormous indivisible chasm that shows two extremely separate views." and ending just before the last paragraph was removed.
Last edited by Leeuwenhoek2 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Mr Man » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:39 pm

Here is a link to "A constitution for living"

http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File ... living.pdf

There is a list of the abbreviations used at the end of the book.

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: The Buddha's Politics

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:12 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:39 pm
Here is a link to "A constitution for living"
http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File ... living.pdf
There is a list of the abbreviations used at the end of the book.
In the pdf file from the link you kindly provided there is a "ABBREVIATIONS Designating major Buddhist scriptures∗" on the 11th digital page of the file -- no list at the end. The page does not indicate what "J.V." means.

Using a digital search I was able to find hit's on "J.V" but nothing that tells me what it means.

I'm thinking the Buddha's politics needs an addendum about transparent and unambiguous citations!

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