Deeper truth about politics

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:38 am

Hey, I said my theory was politically incorrect, not logistically sound. The theory outlined in the OP is just as crappy, but I don't see many here objecting to that. I wonder why? :roll:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

binocular
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by binocular » Wed May 09, 2018 9:44 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:38 am
Hey, I said my theory was politically incorrect, not logistically sound. The theory outlined in the OP is just as crappy, but I don't see many here objecting to that. I wonder why? :roll:
Because the topic of the thread is about the radical political impulse in general, as opposed to specific ideological demands. The passage quoted in the OP was just a cue to this.

So. Can you say something about the the radical political impulse in general, as opposed to specific ideological demands?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:13 am
Lol.. entitlement delusion. You have swallowed equalist ideals...
And you have swallowed capitalist ideals. There is no "natural" social or political order, everything is constructed. That is what Buddhism teaches, remember?
I have reasoned that there is no theft going on, since the transactions occur within the framework of commerce.
Your reasoning is based on false logic: the logic of a level (economic) playing field. Something that only exists in the imagination of economic liberals.
Again... wondering if you are an emaciated Third Worlder, or just an overfed westerner fully using the benefits of western civilisation while trashing it to make yourself feel good.
Nope, I am not an emaciated Third Worlder, but I work with this category of people every day, so I have some insight into their reality.
White - does skin pigmentation have something to do with economics and international trade..?
Yes. Take a trip to any one of the "shitholes" (thanks to Mr Trump for that technical term) in Africa and see it for yourself.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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mikenz66
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by mikenz66 » Wed May 09, 2018 9:47 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:38 am
Hey, I said my theory was politically incorrect, not logistically sound. The theory outlined in the OP is just as crappy, but I don't see many here objecting to that. I wonder why? :roll:
Personally I've learned to ignore internet rants. Arguing with them can be a serious waste of time. :tongue:

Mike

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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:50 am

binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:44 am
Because the topic of the thread is about the radical political impulse in general, as opposed to specific ideological demands. The passage quoted in the OP was just a cue to this.

So. Can you say something about the the radical political impulse in general, as opposed to specific ideological demands?
Why discuss the radical political impulse and not discuss the politically conservative (or economically liberal) political impulse as a utopian and deluded affair? As far as I can see the politically conservative (or economically liberal) impulse is the cause of a lot more of the world's current suffering, than the radical political impulse.

People assume that things as they are right now, are the natural order of things; when, in fact, there were specific decisions made that drove us in this direction.

Anyway, I was reacting more to this article: ON THE EARTH'S ENVIRONMENT AND GLOBAL WARMING (NO WORRIES, MATE), than the one in the OP.

Especially to this statement: "To make matters worse, some of the obvious solutions to our environmental problems are politically incorrect, like causing sub-Saharan Africans to stop multiplying like rabbits, for example by not sending them billions of dollars/euros of humanitarian aid handouts, and letting them starve down to a manageable level."

Hence my politically incorrect solution: kill white people.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed May 09, 2018 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 9:58 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:50 am
Why discuss the radical political impulse and not discuss the politically conservative (or economically liberal) political impulse as a utopian and deluded affair because, as far as I can see the politically conservative (or economically liberal) impulse is the cause of a lot more of the world's current suffering than the radical political impulse.
Yes, good point, and one which informs my final comment in the OP. My guess is that the politically conservative/economically liberal impulse currently causes more suffering because it is the one which prevails.

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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:58 am
Yes, good point, and one which informs my final comment in the OP. My guess is that the politically conservative/economically liberal impulse currently causes more suffering because it is the one which prevails.
Possibly. Or it may be due to the "logic" of the prevailing model: Greed is good. Profit is God.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 10:13 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:58 am
Yes, good point, and one which informs my final comment in the OP. My guess is that the politically conservative/economically liberal impulse currently causes more suffering because it is the one which prevails.
Possibly. Or it may be due to the "logic" of the prevailing model: Greed is good. Profit is God.
Yes, it might be, but that leads to an interminable exchange of counter-claims involving disparagement of one's own position. I find it more helpful to conceive of the problem as one of dissatisfaction with the situation as one sees it. One's world is either driven by forces one does not like, or, mutatis mutandis, threatened by them. David Reynolds/Pannobhasa's insight includes this, but is a bit one-sided in its application. It escapes from some of the pitfalls which the Buddha associated with "views", but not all of them.

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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 10:15 am

I also object to this idea that because there has always been poverty and inequality, then I should just accept it.

There has always been murder, but we have laws against that, don't we?

Should we just accept that there will be murder and just focus on changing ourselves?

Now while it is true that we can only really be responsible for what we do and that ultimately we can only change ourselves; we should not forget that we are social animals and that we can actually influence those around us. By extension we should recognise that our personal/individual circumstances are also based on social and political relations, so we must see (or at the very least recognise) our role within these too.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 10:22 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:15 am
I also object to this idea that because there has always been poverty and inequality, then I should just accept it.

There has always been murder, but we have laws against that, don't we?

Should we just accept that there will be murder and just focus on changing ourselves?

Now while it is true that we can only really be responsible for what we do and that ultimately we can only change ourselves; we should not forget that we are social animals and that we can actually influence those around us. By extension we should recognise that our personal/individual circumstances are also based on social and political relations, so we must see (or at the very least recognise) our role within these too.
Whose idea is that? I'm not sure, without you using the quote function, whether you are responding to my post or one further back in the thread. If the former, then it's not a view that I subscribe to.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed May 09, 2018 10:31 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:13 am
Lol.. entitlement delusion. You have swallowed equalist ideals...
And you have swallowed capitalist ideals. There is no "natural" social or political order, everything is constructed. That is what Buddhism teaches, remember?
Of course there is a natural order - it is the order into which things fall absent any interference. Gravity pulls matter into spherical shapes in a vacuum given enough time. The evolutionary pressures on Earth produce different configurations of physical appearance based on the niche of the organism. Stronger animals overpower the weaker ones, in aggregate. This is the natural order. The natural social order is not natural in the sense of eternal and unchanging, it is natural in the sense of default. There is a default order in any given system, given the properties of the component parts of that order. The social system is no different.
grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am
I have reasoned that there is no theft going on, since the transactions occur within the framework of commerce.
Your reasoning is based on false logic: the logic of a level (economic) playing field. Something that only exists in the imagination of economic liberals.
Agreed - the playing field is not level. However, if the transaction takes place within an agreed upon framework, it is not illicit, unless it secretly subverts the rules of the framework (as bribes and all types of corruption do). The disadvantaged did not have any say in the construction of the framework, so you could argue it is theft from that perspective, but under that logic, we would need to obtain the consent of every individual affected by an agreement, to that agreement, which is literally impossible. We are back again to the powerful doing whatever they are able to get away with - the natural (default) order.
grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am
Again... wondering if you are an emaciated Third Worlder, or just an overfed westerner fully using the benefits of western civilisation while trashing it to make yourself feel good.
Nope, I am not an emaciated Third Worlder, but I work with this category of people every day, so I have some insight into their reality.
Having lived almost half my life in the third world, so do I. The reality of dispossesion and poverty is horrendous. But the notion that the historical accident of where a person is born entitles them to anything is nonsense - poor African, or fat American, none of us has any right to say that one is more deserving than another. To do so is to set yourself up as God, basically, as one with the power of clear sighted moral judgement. History again says that those doing such things usually turn out to be fallible humans after all.
grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am
White - does skin pigmentation have something to do with economics and international trade..?
Yes. Take a trip to any one of the "shitholes"
(thanks to Mr Trump for that technical term) in Africa and see it for yourself.

No reasoning from you here, so I'll state it clearly: skin pigmentation has only a historical, contingent, accidental accidental relation with economics and trade. Ie, it has no causal relation with economics and trade. Or are you asserting there is a causal relationship between skin pigmentation and economic status - a position otherwise known as 'racism'?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Grigoris
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 10:34 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:22 am
Whose idea is that? I'm not sure, without you using the quote function, whether you are responding to my post or one further back in the thread. If the former, then it's not a view that I subscribe to.
From the blog:

" The natural reaction for someone in pain is to want things to be different—they want change in the situation. And, as just mentioned, they don’t really want to change the actual cause for their suffering, which is really their own attitude; they want to change things on the outside. Often, instead of changing just one person, their own self, which is actually possible, they want to change seven or eight billion other people, so that they won’t do that thing that the one finds so damn triggering."

This assumes that wanting to act in order to institute social change is fundamentally flawed. This, of course, is ridiculous. The monastic sangha, for example, has the Vinaya in order to guarantee a functional social environment. Even the Buddha recommended changes to the Vinaya if the rules were found to be pointless.

Why would this not also apply to lay (political and social) life?

(I am being rhetorical, not asking you, I am not assuming that you support or oppose the view found in the blog).
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed May 09, 2018 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

User avatar
Grigoris
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:31 am
Of course there is a natural order
No there is not, not when we talk about social/political order.
Gravity pulls matter into spherical shapes in a vacuum given enough time. The evolutionary pressures on Earth produce different configurations of physical appearance based on the niche of the organism. Stronger animals overpower the weaker ones, in aggregate. This is the natural order. The natural social order is not natural in the sense of eternal and unchanging, it is natural in the sense of default. There is a default order in any given system, given the properties of the component parts of that order. The social system is no different.
Of course it is different. You cannot compare gravity to social/political structures.
Agreed - the playing field is not level. However, if the transaction takes place within an agreed upon framework, it is not illicit...
You are not asking yourself: "Who sets the rules?"
...none of us has any right to say that one is more deserving than another.
The person in the blog I quoted a little further up did.
No reasoning from you here, so I'll state it clearly: skin pigmentation has only a historical, contingent, accidental accidental relation with economics and trade. Ie, it has no causal relation with economics and trade. Or are you asserting there is a causal relationship between skin pigmentation and economic status - a position otherwise known as 'racism'?
You deny the existence of racism??? Especially structural varieties of racism? (Apartheid, Nazism, Zionism, European colonialism, etc are examples that come to mind).
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 10:41 am

grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:34 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:22 am
Whose idea is that? I'm not sure, without you using the quote function, whether you are responding to my post or one further back in the thread. If the former, then it's not a view that I subscribe to.
From the blog:

" The natural reaction for someone in pain is to want things to be different—they want change in the situation. And, as just mentioned, they don’t really want to change the actual cause for their suffering, which is really their own attitude; they want to change things on the outside. Often, instead of changing just one person, their own self, which is actually possible, they want to change seven or eight billion other people, so that they won’t do that thing that the one finds so damn triggering."

This assumes that wanting to act in order to institute social change is fundamentally flawed. This, of course, is ridiculous. The monastic sangha, for example, has the Vinaya in order to guarantee a functional social environment. Even the Buddha recommeded changes to the Vinaya if the rules were found to be pointless.

Why would this not also apply to lay (political and social) life? (I am being rhetorical, not asking you, I am not assuming that you support or oppose the view found in the blog).
Ah, I see. As I said, I wasn't sure which post your comment referred to. My guess is that D.R. would be in favour of "changing things on the outside", but under certain circumstances. Personally, I find that in most of the situations that annoy me, I find it easier to modify my thoughts about them than to modify the external world. Meditation makes the mind lighter and more malleable, but the world out there continues to exert a lot of resistance...

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: Deeper truth about politics

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Wed May 09, 2018 10:53 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:13 am

... I find it more helpful to conceive of the problem as one of dissatisfaction with the situation as one sees it. One's world is either driven by forces one does not like, or, mutatis mutandis, threatened by them. David Reynolds/Pannobhasa's insight includes this, but is a bit one-sided in its application.
There is the ancient observation that when humans are dissatisfied a common impulse is to want to fix others.
That impulse comes right around the time we wish that "if only more people had the right view on things". And the right view just happens to look some thing very close to our own view. Funny how that happens.

When the Buddha sought out new wisdom he studied with at least two, very different teachers. From that experience he formed a "middle way". In modern terms he studied a thesis from the first teacher, then an anti-thesis (or something quite different) from the second and from that formed his own new syn-thesis. I think that is a wise path for Buddhists engaging in societal issues.

While I believe there are reasons why my preferred view is probably the most effective and compassionate I can't completely prove it. Others believe strongly in their view ... but can't prove it either. On top of that everyone seems to have "blind spots".
One solution is to attempt to purge individuals of their biases. But cognitive psychologists don’t yet understand how to do this. The only method that reliably solves the confirmation bias problem is to create groups made up of individuals with different biases. In such an environment, countervailing biases checks one another, prodding at weak points and raising questions a colleague didn’t think to ask. This dynamic is highly adapted to truth-seeking, because it forces every person to justify their biases on grounds other than tribalism.

Once we understand intellectual diversity this way, we can clearly see that ... publications do their readers a service by elevating ideas that challenge prevailing assumptions. Orthodoxies have often been wrong: entire generations of accomplished thinkers devoted themselves to one -ism or another. No conservative or progressive should feel confident that their side’s leading lights are truth personified. Instead, they should wonder what other falsehoods are lurking behind the group confirmation bias.
Same logic applies to conservative, libertarian, moderate or other -ism.

Quote paraphrased from: http://quillette.com/2018/05/03/paul-kr ... diversity/

:smile: "I can't stand people who think they know it all. They naturally bother those of us who do."

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