thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

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Ruud
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Ruud » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:07 am

I generally agree with Sam that there would be a wide range of positions within society, from seeing them as ‘mere’ animals, to savages, to lost brothers and equals. But I think an important factor would be whether ‘interbreeding’ between the species is possible. If not, the groups would be much more clearly defined, and I think the divide would be much more extreme. But if possible, relationships would inevitably happen, also leading to children, which over time would just more and more blur the lines between the groups. This is not to say the spectrum of opinions wouldn’t be seen but it would become a very different discussion.

Besides, I think, as the discussion about great ape personhood shows, that being human and being a person does not necessarily have to be the same thing. In a more Abrahamical-influenced worldview it is, because that how “life is ordered”, but I think such lines are slowly also blurring. Which of course then might creates the problem of people becoming ‘speciesist’.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Sam Vara
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:34 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:46 am

For other explorations of the moral questions, try Terry Pratchett's Discworld series (which is far more morally serious and insightful than its surface suggests) and CS Lewis's "Out of the Silent Planet" ... and lots more SF, of course.
Thanks. There's also The Inheritors by William Golding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inher ... ing_novel)

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Bundokji
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Bundokji » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:01 pm
Note: I am not saying there are such differences in Sapiens and in fact my position is there are none or they are so negligible to be completely insignificant, however, if there were other human species with clear differences, then that would raise some interesting questions for both religions and society.
Before jumping into other human species, we might be able to find answers when we investigate our own perceptions in my opinion.

If the differences between Sapiens are indeed negligible, why do they look significant in the eyes of most human beings?

Would it be inaccurate to say that this is related to what we value?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:37 am

This need not be looked at as just a thought experiment.....I think that it is being played out by white supremicists in the usa.
chownah

Circle5
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Circle5 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:47 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:11 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:54 am
What if there were still
Why what if?
They are already here and we do not give a hoot about them.
Chimpanzees!
:tongue:
Some chimpanzees and gorillas have demonstrated some pretty good intelligence (for a nonhuman animal, that is) with the completion of simple tasks, some basic words in sign language, but still no comparison to hominids in the human/homo family with use of tools as weapons, better language skills, etc.
Haven't you heard about Pigmies ? 10% of Congo population is (or at least used to be, cause there was a big genocide going on) Pigmies. In my opinion Pigmies are more different than other humans in terms of body and intelligence than Neanthertals or Denisovans would be. So why the need for this thought experiment ? We can just look at what is happening to Pigmies.

And what exactly is happening to pigmies ? They are being decimated and enslaved by sub-saharan africans, a more powerful and inteligent race. Maybe at one point, people that do this will enlighten themselves same as europeans did and will stop this practice. Or maybe they will not.

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No_Mind
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by No_Mind » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:52 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:01 pm
Note: I am not saying there are such differences in Sapiens and in fact my position is there are none or they are so negligible to be completely insignificant,
I disagree completely.

Difference between her (took me 15 minutes to find a "decent" picture from Rio carnival)

Image

and him

Image

is in no way insignificant. The difference between them is not negligible but vast. I think I have support from Buddha in this matter.

There are vast differences among humans other than skin color. Someone dancing almost nude before thousands is not the same as a monk or a diligent student (note .. I did not say good student but diligent one)

All humans are not the same. At most we can say there is possibility that they may become the same - all humans can be decent, sober, have good taste, be calm, not have addictions, try to educate themselves, be virtuous ..

But it is not going to happen .. and some will always be inferior, political correctness notwithstanding.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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DNS
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by DNS » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm

No Mind,

Your second photo link is not showing.

Yes, I agree there are differences among humans, as the Yuval Harari video talk shows, all men are not created equal and in fact evolved differently. There are differences in intelligence, height, strength, abilities, disabilities, etc. I'm just saying the differences are mostly negligible comparing groups based on intelligence. All racial, ethnic distinctions among Sapiens have a common ancestor only some 85,000 years ago or even less in, which is very recent in evolutionary time.

Among other hominids, however (now extinct) the differences were not just negligible, but quite distinct; which would have raised some serious moral dilemmas if they were still around on how we interact with them.

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Sam Vara
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:57 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm
all men are not created equal and in fact evolved differently. There are differences in intelligence, height, strength, abilities, disabilities, etc. I'm just saying the differences are mostly negligible comparing groups based on intelligence.
And here's another potentially interesting thought about relative intelligence. Once language and cultures develop, the relative intelligence of individual members of the species becomes less and less important. We rely more upon accumulated knowledge and experience, such that it is possible for quite ordinary members of the species, and even the least evolutionarily gifted members, to have relatively happy and fulfilled lives. Individual genius was presumably very advantageous for early hominids; it meant that they could out-smart their rivals and get the best mates, food, and living conditions. Most of us wouldn't last ten minutes under stone-age conditions. But we don't need to be all that bright, because we are (as one very bright ancestor apparently said) we are "standing on the shoulders of giants".

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No_Mind
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by No_Mind » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:15 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm
No Mind,

Your second photo link is not showing.
It was something like this

Image

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Mkoll
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Mkoll » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:48 pm

Apparently there's a movement for great ape personhood.

Wikipedia:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... inTngTdKgH
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Circle5
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Re: thought experiment: what if (now extinct) hominids lived among us

Post by Circle5 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:00 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm
All racial, ethnic distinctions among Sapiens have a common ancestor only some 85,000 years ago or even less in, which is very recent in evolutionary time.
You're lagging a couple of decades in terms of what we know now about human evolution. The out of africa theory is competing with the multi regional theory. Recent DNA evidence discovered through the big genome project support the second one. So far, it is unclear which one is correct and both have problems. It's incorrect to use the out-of-africa theory like it is 100% certain like one would do a couple of decades ago when evidence is 50-50 or even 51-49 in favor of the multi-regional one today.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/content ... hesis-6391

Note how the model B and model C have now developed. The model A (that you are using) or model D are too radical and have too many problems and that's why model B and C developed.
Among other hominids, however (now extinct) the differences were not just negligible, but quite distinct; which would have raised some serious moral dilemmas if they were still around on how we interact with them.
Was the Neanthertal or Denisovan more distinct in terms of physical appearence and intelligence compared to us than the Pigmies are ? (10% of Congo population is pigmies) I really don't think so.

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