Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:54 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:44 am
Of course, don't you?
No.
I can undersand why people would apply inference based on past administrations, but if you look at it through his oft-stated "Peace Through Strength" mantra, you can see that it's fully in keeping with his approach, which has nothing to do with how past administrations engaged the Middle East.
Oh, you mean it does not have to do with petrol monopolies and power hegemonies like it did with past administrations? Phew, that a relief! :?
Given that it's a covert operation that's not been publicized (so as to enable Kim to "save face", which in turn helps pave the way for the redemption path laid out for him), there isn't much in the way of open source materials on it.
Well that's handy, isn't it? And it's great that such reputable sources did manage to get their hands on information. Gotta love democaracy and freedom of speech!
...pixies, fairies and magic dust, then I'm all ears.
Obviously it has not occurred to you that the sources you quoted are pixies, fairies and magic dust?

You may be a conservative, but sourcing tabloids and "covert operation" conspiracies is stretching it. There are sane and reputable sources of conservative news and views available, you know?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:02 am

Greetings,
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:54 am
Oh, you mean it does not have to do with petrol monopolies and power hegemonies like it did with past administrations? Phew, that a relief! :?
Despite your obvious sarcasm, yes that's precisely what I mean.
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:54 am
You may be a conservative, but sourcing tabloids and "covert operation" conspiracies is stretching it. There are sane and reputable sources of conservative news and views available, you know?
Still waiting on your better explanation on North Korea...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:00 am
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:47 am
I guess then this is a fore warning about what is likely to happen in north korea?
chownah
No, it's the same approach, but the leaders of North Korea and Syria responded differently.

North Korea pushed the boundaries, but did not over-step them. You may not know this, but Trump actually did a pre-emptive strike on a North Korean nuclear weapon facility in about November last year, using technology known as the "Rods of God". Kim realised he was outpowered and outgunned, and was happy to take the "redemption path" being offered to him by Trump.
It seems that retrofuturist is having difficulty rationalizing current events and that he has a somewhat delusional view of what transpired in north korea months ago. Neither of the articles he brings talk about "rods of god" that I could find but neither of them seem to have anything to do with his peculiar narrative.

It seems that retrofuturist has weaponized an earthquake which happened at the north korean nuclear mountain facility and turned it into a secret raid unleashed by trump. There are lots of seismic monitors in china and elsewhere and analysts are pretty good at interpreting what shakes and all reports are to either natural causes (seismic shifing of understratas) or a collapse of a large portion of the mountain under which the north koreans have been detonating their nuclear devices. The north koreans reported that it occured while they were tunneling in the mountain so it is thought that the nuclear blasts had weakened the mountain and the tunneling set off a massive slide which if memory serves me that slide was well documented and shown on the internet.

Conspiracy theorists really have no boundaries when it comes to conjuring up whatever it takes......it would not surprise me if some conspiracy theorist claims that trump can control earthquakes. Hail trump the all powerful!
chownah

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:14 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:05 am
It seems that retrofuturist is having difficulty rationalizing current events and that he has a somewhat delusional view of what transpired in north korea months ago.
It seems that chownah fails to realise that it's OK for people to have different opinions to chownah, and that chownah doesn't need to psychoanalyze other members and be intolerant of diverse opinions.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:23 am

Still waiting on your better explanation on North Korea...
You stated the relation bewteen what is happening in Syria and secret weapons in covert operations in North Korea, the onus of responsibility is on you to prove the validity of the claims. I (rightfully) questioned the validity of your sources. If there are no reputable sources then it is quite okay for me to reject the validity of your claims, without a counter-argument, as none is needed.

If you claimed rainbow unicorns caused the collapse of a North Korean nuclear facility, I wouldn't have to disprove the existence of rainbow unicorns and their anti-nuclear capacity. In the same way...
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:48 am

Greetings Grigoris,

I'm not saying I have proof to provide an iron-clad substantiation, I'm saying I have reasons to believe it is so.

Similarly, the situation in Syria.

I think there's a very small percentage of people in the world with all the intelligence resources at their fingertips to know the full story, and zero percent of those people would be authorized to tell us about it here on Dhamma Wheel. Therefore, we are all dealing with theory to an extent...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by No_Mind » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:55 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:36 am
I did not use the expression self-centered to mean "self".
Right... So now "self" does not mean "self", it means something else?
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:20 am
Buddha taught the 4NT to end one's own suffering not those of others.
So he taught the 4NT to end his own suffering, not so that sentient beings can bring an end to suffering?
Self-centered means to be preoccupied with oneself and one's own affairs. It has nothing to do with "self and no-self" in Buddhism. I request you to not engage me in conversation unless you are able to understand basic English.

He taught the 4NT so that every human can bring an end to their own suffering. There will always be suffering in this world. There will be drought, famine, flood, pestilence, gender inequality, racial divide, war, civil war, rape and other similar atrocities and injustices.

All that an average individual can do is help to some extent (a refugee needs shelter and food for few days .. to help with that) .. beyond that one can do nothing. If you want to become inflamed with emotions .. that is your prerogative. A Theravadan Buddhist will not choose to be involved in this world's suffering. He will retreat to the forest.

I believe I have explained my point of view sufficiently. You can of course have other views. You are welcome to them.

At this point any further conversation about this between you and me is meaningless. I will not henceforth reply to you on this thread. Please do not write a post aimed at me ending with a ?
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:48 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 am
Coming from the nation which gave to the world Epictetus and Stoicism why are you so unnaturally worried :?
If you go here you will see photos from a graveyard for refugees that I took. It is a fifteen minute drive from where I live. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
I did not quite understand. Are you sad about the fact that they died or are you sad that their graves spoil the scenery?

If the former .. it was their Kamma If the latter .. then build a more visually attractive burial ground. Either way be Stoic.

Being soft and teary is not the Buddhist way (or the Stoic way)

I have created a new topic .. visit there

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31694#p467977

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:11 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:55 am
Self-centered means to be preoccupied with oneself and one's own affairs. It has nothing to do with "self and no-self" in Buddhism.
So a mistaken sense of self has nothing to do with self-centeredness. Have you heard about the khandas?
...and I request you to not engage me in conversation unless you are able to understand basic English.
Lacking logic and knowledge you turn to racism. Well done!
He taught the 4NT so that every human can bring an end to their own suffering. There will always be suffering in this world. There will be drought, famine, flood, pestilence, gender inequality, racial divide, war, civil war, rape and other similar atrocities and injustices.
So the Buddha wasted his time? I mean, if there is always going to be suffering then why teach an end to it, right?
All that an average individual can do is help to some extent (a refugee needs shelter and food for few days .. to help with that) .. beyond that one can do nothing. If you want to become inflamed with emotions .. that is your prerogative. A Theravadan Buddhist will not choose to be involved in this world's suffering. He will retreat to the forest.
Really? So why do Theravada Buddhists set up orphanages? Schools? Hospitals? Etc...
At this point any further conversation about this between you and me is meaningless. I will not henceforth reply to you on this thread. Please do not write a post aimed at me ending with a ?
I will reply to whomever I wish, that is what discussion boards are all about. As long as my replies are within the ToS, there is nothing you can do about it. You, on the other hand, are quite welcome not to read and reply to my posts if you so wish. There is also a "foe" option in the user control panel, if you wish to use it.
I did not quite understand. Are you sad about the fact that they died or are you sad that their graves spoil the scenery?

If the former .. it was their Kamma If the latter .. then build a more visually attractive burial ground.
No. I am just showing you how what is happening in Syria impacts directly on my reality. How my concern about the war in Syria is a reasonable and intelligent reaction. I am trying to show why I am not "unnaturally worried". The Syrian war has also been one of the factors leading to a dictatorship and Turkey. This in turn has lead to an escalation in tension between Greece and Turkey. This is bad for me (living on an island 5km off the coast of Turkey) and my Turkish friends currently suffering under yet another US and EU backed dictatorship. But then again: you have no idea about my situation.
Being soft and teary is not the Buddhist way.
Ever heard of the Four Immeasurables (appamaññā), or Abodes of Brahma (cattāri brahmavihārā)? Ever heard of Metta practice? I guess not, probably because, as you said earlier: You are not a Buddhist. These are Theravada practices, BTW.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:48 am
Greetings Grigoris,

I'm not saying I have proof to provide an iron-clad substantiation, I'm saying I have reasons to believe it is so.

Similarly, the situation in Syria.

I think there's a very small percentage of people in the world with all the intelligence resources at their fingertips to know the full story, and zero percent of those people would be authorized to tell us about it here on Dhamma Wheel. Therefore, we are all dealing with theory to an extent...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Paul, I come into contact with refugees from Syria (and Iraq and Afghanistan) every day, I can assure you that what the US is doing in Syria (and Iraq and Afghanistan) not helping their situation in the slightest.

Consider the fact that there were very few refugees from Syria before the destabilisation of Assad's regime, and now...

Now Assad was no angel, not by a long shot, but what is happening in Syria is not a step in the right direction. And that is a fact. 500,000 dead can attest to it.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Circle5
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Circle5 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:58 am

I told you nothing would happen and USA will try to save face somehow. Not to lose time re-writing, I will repost this comment of somebody from SCW reddit:
What happened today was a middle option of all that could have been chosen. In diplomatic and military circles, everyone knows how symbolic the operation was, a kind of a deal between Russia and west to wrap up the situation.

Ordinary people who follow this war, are generally unsatisfied, on both sides. A lot of pro-Americans say that strikes were symbolic and won't serve any actual purpose to change the course of the war, much like the ones last year. A lot of pro-Russians lament the passivity of Russia, calling it showing weakness. But both informed sides, more or less, call this event not too much important.

On the third side are ordinary people, the consumers of mass media. This is one instance where i think USA achieved a small but maybe important psychological victory. For days, media projected the world war hype on purpose. Desinformations about Russian promise to shoot down rockets and ships even if no Russian target was hit, were widely accepted among ordinary people, who obviously got hyped for actual war. Thus, in the eyes of misinformed majority of westerners, Russia looks incredibly weak, and at the same time attention has been deterred from Trump's scandals. In the eyes of misinformed majoritu of pro-russian people in countries like Ukraine, Serbia, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia or even Iran, Russians showed that they can tolerate direct attacks on their allies, which will definitely be a punch to pro-russian sentiments there. Maybe, but not necessarely and not in the too long run.

So, all in all

MILITARILY, nearly nothing was achieved. Less than the last year.

DIPLOMATICALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY, both sides are more or less equally happy (or not happy), and accept that neither side won and nothing of importance was done and great escalation was averted.

IN THE EYES OF PLEBS of both sides, it is a victory for the west, in a psychological way, much thanks to giant hype created by media in the last days.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by No_Mind » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 pm

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:11 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:55 am
He taught the 4NT so that every human can bring an end to their own suffering. There will always be suffering in this world. There will be drought, famine, flood, pestilence, gender inequality, racial divide, war, civil war, rape and other similar atrocities and injustices.
So the Buddha wasted his time? I mean, if there is always going to be suffering then why teach an end to it, right?
Since you are from Mahayana .. our perspectives will not match. All I wish is you made your identity clear upfront. I would not have had to waste so many words

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:25 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 pm
Since you are from Mahayana .. our perspectives will not match. All I wish is you made your identity clear upfront. I would not have had to waste so many words

:namaste:
Everything I have said here I have supported from the Pali Canon. Our perspectives do not match because you do not hold a Buddhist view.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:40 pm

Please could members refrain from personal attacks? We can surely disagree over the meaning and importance of news reports without claiming that other members are not "proper Buddhists". People might want to have a look at the specific rules for this section:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=28937

Thanks.

:focus:

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cjmacie
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by cjmacie » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:55 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:44 am
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am
As for the North Korea thing, both sources you quoted are highly dubious. Got any better sources?
Given that it's a covert operation that's not been publicized (so as to enable Kim to "save face", which in turn helps pave the way for the redemption path laid out for him), there isn't much in the way of open source materials on it. If, however, you're able to provide a better explanation for the turnaround in North Korea over past six months that doesn't involved pixies, fairies and magic dust, then I'm all ears.

People need to remember that there's a whole layer of intelligence, negotiations and maneuverings underneath what gets broadcast in the news. We're never really going to be have meaningful discussions on what's happening with a lot of this, because we don't know all the intelligence, and we never will. To wit, it's fine to have an opinion, but it would be folly to disregard all other possible realities.
LOL. Amusing, if rather lame.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:33 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:55 am
All that an average individual can do is help to some extent (a refugee needs shelter and food for few days .. to help with that) .. beyond that one can do nothing. If you want to become inflamed with emotions .. that is your prerogative. A Theravadan Buddhist will not choose to be involved in this world's suffering. He will retreat to the forest.
Well, I consider myself a Theravadin Buddhist, and I don't agree wth this statement. It reads to me as an example of what in Mayahana circles is called "emptiness sickness" (apologies for mentioning "the enemy", but I have tremendous of respect for the Mayahana Buddhists that I know personally), and in more general terms "spiritual bypassing". Furthermore, in purely practical terms, if all Theravadin Buddhists had retreated to the forest in the past there would be none left by now... :tongue:

However, these issues would be best discussed on your other thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31694#p467977

:heart:
Mike

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