Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:40 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:38 am
Include all those who are suffering in Syria in your daily metta practice.
Buddhist hand wringing? :thinking:
Do not conflate post-modern western ideas with Buddhism ..
Do not conflate your self-centered concern with Buddhism.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by No_Mind » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:40 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:38 am
Include all those who are suffering in Syria in your daily metta practice.
Buddhist hand wringing? :thinking:
I am not a Buddhist per se so I cannot really say (we have our own resident arahant here to comment on such weighty matters) .. but I do include all who suffer in my metta practice
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:40 am
Do not conflate post-modern western ideas with Buddhism ..
Do not conflate your self-centered concern with Buddhism.
Buddhism according to Theravada is self-centered. If you are doctrinally confused I can only wringe my hands at your ignorance :(

Coming from the nation which gave to the world Epictetus and Stoicism why are you so unnaturally worried :?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:04 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 am
Buddhism according to Theravada is self-centered.
No it is not. FYI Theravada Buddhism teaches Anatta.

AND the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths in order to end suffering. He didn't say: "Suffering will never stop... So I'll just abide in Nibbanna and not worry about it."

Seems you are very confused about Buddhism. Since you state openly that you are not a Buddhist, wouldn't it be better to listen to what Buddhists have to say about Buddhism?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by No_Mind » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:20 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:04 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 am
Buddhism according to Theravada is self-centered.
No it is not. FYI Theravada Buddhism teaches Anatta.

AND the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths in order to end suffering. He didn't say: "Suffering will never stop... So I'll just abide in Nibbanna and not worry about it."

Seems you are very confused about Buddhism. Since you state openly that you are not a Buddhist, wouldn't it be better to listen to what Buddhists have to say about Buddhism?
Writing from my phone so will keep it short.

I did not use the expression self-centered to mean "self". Do not create a false argument.

Buddha taught the 4NT to end one's own suffering not those of others. The world will never stop wrecking havoc on itself.

Please carry on your hand wringing. Signing out.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Bundokji » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:45 am
Greetings,

My take is that the previously stated "red line" about the use of chemical weapons was crossed, and that a series of missiles were used to disrupt the infrastructure used for the storage and creation of such weaponry. Russia were warned of the strike in advance so they could clear out, without accidentally instigating serious military conflict between the U.S. and Russia.

Unlike past US administrations, there is no drive for occupation, or regime change or anything along those lines. My understanding of Trump's long-term policy is that he intends to allow Saudi Arabia to monitor and de-escalate conflicts in the Middle East. The U.S. will monitor and de-escalate conflicts in the Pacific. This Syrian strike is over and above, yet separate to, that general long-term principle that he's working towards.

To anyone saying nothing should have been done, or that it's "interference" or whatever, I wonder if they would say nothing should have been done when the Nazis where using chemicals to gas the Jews?

Metta,
Paul. :)
As far as i can remember reading your posts on the News, Current Events & Politics section, i have always felt that your assessment of events is neutral and objective not letting emotions to affect your ability to judge. But in this particular instance, i feel that somehow you became obliged to defend Trump as a continuation of views you shared about him in the past. In other words, i feel that your focus became on the person rather than actions, and this is where things can go really wrong.

Firstly, you cannot be objectively sure that the previously stated red line of using chemical weapons have been crossed. Investigators are on ground and they were supposed to check the site today in Douma. And even if the investigators found that Chemical weapons have been used, it does not mean that the Syrian regime used them. As you know, Russia warned more than a month ago that the west is going to fabricate/stage the use of chemical weapons to attack Syria. They could have at least waited until the inspectors release a report before they act. According to the BBC, Russia was not warned before the strikes, but they said that the three western nations made sure to avoid causing casualties among Russians (how humane!).

Your second paragraph is a continuation of your attempt to defend Trump instead of looking at the action itself. Firstly, you felt you had to mention the previous administrations which seems to be an attempt to justify instead of impartially assess, and ignoring in the process the possible consequences of the action if things went wrong. You also assured us that the strike is over ignoring its possible consequences on future relationship between super powers, the stability in the region and global peace.

As a human being, when your judgement is based on emotions and attachments, it becomes very likely that you would resort to appealing to emotions. Your reference to the Nazi's and the Jews is below you, not because the incident itself is not tragic, but because it became a cheap card used by anyone in support of weak reasoning. I hate to sound like a broken record, but there is no evidence so far that the Assad regime used Chemical weapons, and even if they did, military action has to be through the UN security council as per the international law. Unilateral actions undermines international law, and is proved to cost more civilians deaths than the ones who died in the alleged chemical attacks.

Trump is planning to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal and to move the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. These strikes are only the beginning of more decisions that will affect the lives of people in the Middle East both Arabs and Jews. When people have the luxury of living far away from the eye of the storm, supporting carelessness does not come as a surprise.

Peace
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:36 am

I did not use the expression self-centered to mean "self".
Right... So now "self" does not mean "self", it means something else?
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:20 am
Buddha taught the 4NT to end one's own suffering not those of others.
So he taught the 4NT to end his own suffering, not so that sentient beings can bring an end to suffering?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:06 pm
Greetings perkele,
perkele wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:23 pm
What is the deal here?

I seriously do not understand.
He is going through the same process as with North Korea.
I guess then this is a fore warning about what is likely to happen in north korea?
chownah

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:53 am

Greetings Bundokji,

No, despite your psychoanalysis and spurious reasoning, I'm quite comfortable that all this is in keeping with Trump's broader plan.

Trump's position regarding these matters is "Peace through strength". What does strength entail? Being willing to enforce a line or boundary once it's set. Compare with the Obama administration who set all manner of arbitrary lines and resets, but would never back them up. This demonstrated weakness, and that they might talk a tough game, but wouldn't back it up. For all the mainstream media's carry on that Trump is so "unpredictable", he's actually very predictable, once you understand how he goes about things.

This isn't an administration focused on forcing regime change, occupations, interfering in civil wars, or starting and perpetuating wars... it's focused on Peace Through Strength. It's unfortunate that the behaviour of past U.S. administrations (i.e. the war-mongering, the neo-con interventionism, the self-serving military-industrial complex, the deliberate mass migration events) sullies the perspective of the current one, but there's not much they can do about that. However, for the second time Assad has pushed the boundaries regarding the use of chemical weapons, over-reached, and paid the price.

(Sure, the use of chemical weapons may have been a "false flag", or based on false intelligence... but given the intelligence available, the decision made is totally in keeping with his policy. If you don't like "Peace Through Strength", that's fine... frankly I think it's highly appropriate, and reminds me of how we moderate this forum ;) .)

And despite your complaints, the gassing of the Jews is very comparable.... chemical weapons as a means of warfare are a no-no, according to all international conventions and treaties. It is good to the French and UK government recognise this too...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by cjmacie » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:57 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:16 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33 pm
Why is no topic here about the important events that are about to happen regarding Syria ? I sometimes come here to check the news. I think "if something super important is happening, it must be there in the dw news section". But since this news is not here, maybe I shouldn't rely on DW to get the news in the future.
You're right, DW is the place to go for news; it's just that you went to the wrong DW.
http://www.dw.com/

:tongue:
aside: Deutsche Welle, ("German Wave") similar to the BBC, had been the only such global news outlet that ran ad-free. As of a couple of days ago, very sadly, they've added advertisements.

But maybe, like the BBC, that's just for foreign versions. I once, disgusted, complained to the BBC about the ads. They responded that ads do not appear on the BBC when viewed from within Britain.

btw: what is the other, "wrong" DW?
Last edited by cjmacie on Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:00 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:47 am
I guess then this is a fore warning about what is likely to happen in north korea?
chownah
No, it's the same approach, but the leaders of North Korea and Syria responded differently.

North Korea pushed the boundaries, but did not over-step them. You may not know this, but Trump actually did a pre-emptive strike on a North Korean nuclear weapon facility in about November last year, using technology known as the "Rods of God". Kim realised he was outpowered and outgunned, and was happy to take the "redemption path" being offered to him by Trump.

Assad did overstep the line, however, and paid the price. In the follow up, Trump is going to be working very hard through economic and trade-based negotiations to reduce the number of allies who are supporting Assad. There is no victory for Assad if he insists on resorting to chemical weapons.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:53 am
And despite your complaints, the gassing of the Jews is very comparable.... chemical weapons as a means of warfare are a no-no, according to all international conventions and treaties.
The Jews were gassed in extermination chambers as part of the "Final Solution", it was not chemical weaponry used in warfare. Either way the logic fallacy of reductio al Hitlerum applies here.

And, really, you think Trump and his cronies actually gives a crap about Syrian civilians? Really?

This whole deal stinks of the same stench as the reasoning behind invading Iraq and all the reasons for invading are identical.

As for the North Korea thing, both sources you quoted are highly dubious. Got any better sources?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Bundokji » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:53 am
Greetings Bundokji,

No, despite your psychoanalysis and spurious reasoning,
My input has nothing to do with psychoanalysis, but with basic logic. Also please demonstrate my spurious reasoning so i can have the chance to correct it.
Trump's position regarding these matters is "Peace through strength". What does strength entail? Being willing to enforce a line or boundary once it's set. Compare with the Obama administration who set all manner of arbitrary lines and resets, but would never back them up. This demonstrated weakness, and that they might talk a tough game, but wouldn't back it up. For all the mainstream media's carry on that Trump is so "unpredictable", he's actually very predictable, once you understand how he goes about things.
My input is not on the personhood of Trump (which you appear to be doing), but on the action itself. Focusing on the action itself is conducive to impartiality in my opinion. When the focus is on the person, the reasoning becomes a tool to serve an identity, similar to identity politics which you have been rightly criticizing. It is also akin to cheering a football team, i would cheer them regardless of their performance in a particular game because they are my team.

The above has nothing to do with psychoanalysis, but highlighting what i see as an intellectual bias. It is not a personal attack.
This isn't an administration focused on forcing regime change, occupations, interfering in civil wars, or starting and perpetuating wars... it's focused on Peace Through Strength. It's unfortunate that the behaviour of past U.S. administrations sullies the perspective of the current one, but there's not much they can do about that. However, for the second time Assad has pushed the boundaries regarding the use of chemical weapons, over-reached, and paid the price.

Sure, the use of chemical weapons may have been a "false flag", or based on false intelligence... but given the intelligence available, the decision made is totally in keeping with his policy. If you don't like "Peace Through Strength", that's fine... frankly I think it's highly appropriate.)
Until a conclusive evidence does emerge either confirming or dis-confirming the regime's use of chemical weapons, taking an action that causes death and destruction and possibly can lead to military confrontations between superpowers cannot be morally right. When anyone makes a claim, the onus of proof is on them, this is how sane human beings act. Also giving the record of the US policy in the Middle East using false intelligence to wage wars which caused a lot of suffering to innocent human beings, it is prudent to learn from past mistakes to be more careful. It is also worth mentioning that even though Trump is not directly responsible for the actions of previous administrations, he is the president of the country which took these actions. Therefore, it is a part of his responsibility to take the country into the right direction by not repeating the same mistakes.
And despite your complaints, the gassing of the Jews is very comparable.... chemical weapons as a means of warfare are a no-no, according to all international conventions and treaties. It is good to the French and UK government recognise this too...
The UN security council has five permanent members with veto powers for a reason. Even if i grant you (for the sake of argument) that the Assad regime used chemical weapons, taking an action that triggers possible confrontation between superpowers with nuclear ability that might cause the end of humanity as we know over the death of 70 people in the alleged chemical attack is careless at best and insane at worst.
Last edited by Bundokji on Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by cjmacie » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:00 am
... Trump actually did a pre-emptive strike on a North Korean nuclear weapon facility in about November last year, using technology known as the "Rods of God". Kim realised he was outpowered and outgunned, and was happy to take the "redemption path" being offered to him by Trump...
What's the documentation for this claim? (The two links don't seem of offer any.)

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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:44 am

Greetings,
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am
And, really, you think Trump and his cronies actually gives a crap about Syrian civilians? Really?
Of course, don't you?
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am
This whole deal stinks of the same stench as the reasoning behind invading Iraq and all the reasons for invading are identical.
I can understand why people would apply inference based on past administrations, but if you look at it through his oft-stated "Peace Through Strength" mantra, you can see that it's fully in keeping with his approach, which has nothing to do with how past administrations engaged the Middle East.

Image

Image
grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:37 am
As for the North Korea thing, both sources you quoted are highly dubious. Got any better sources?
Given that it's a covert operation that's not been publicized (so as to enable Kim to "save face", which in turn helps pave the way for the redemption path laid out for him), there isn't much in the way of open source materials on it. If, however, you're able to provide a better explanation for the turnaround in North Korea over past six months that doesn't involved pixies, fairies and magic dust, then I'm all ears.

People need to remember that there's a whole layer of intelligence, negotiations and maneuverings underneath what gets broadcast in the news. We're never really going to be have meaningful discussions on what's happening with a lot of this, because we don't know all the intelligence, and we never will. To wit, it's fine to have an opinion, but it would be folly to disregard all other possible realities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Grigoris
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Re: Next 24 hours are super important (huge tensions regarding Syria)

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:48 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 am
Coming from the nation which gave to the world Epictetus and Stoicism why are you so unnaturally worried :?
If you go here you will see photos from a graveyard for refugees that I took. It is a fifteen minute drive from where I live. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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