Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:27 am
Greetings No_Mind,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:16 am
There is no well respected study that shows intelligence is a genetically inherited trait.
I've not closely followed the history of this debate (because, for one thing, I'm not overly interested in it) but isn't it a commonly accepted maxim that human development is an admixture of nature and nurture, of which genetics falls under the banner of nature?

Metta,
Paul. :)
That would apply to something such as strength and speed.

A normal Indian Tamil kid would not be able to run as fast as a white boy from Perth (nature)

But if the Tamil kid was trained to be a sprinter (as in a cricket player) he can become as good a fielder as an Australian.

Back when Border was Aussie captain (1988 World Cup) we were the worst fielders because we could not run. Our fielders were the the 12th Aussie batsman giving away 50 runs in a One Day match.

But over last 30 years through training and diet we have compensated and we do not lose a single run due to lack of fitness.

In fact now India is widely considered one of the top three fielding sides at all times (nurture)

Maybe it applies to intelligence too but no well respected study has been done .. is my point.

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Last edited by No_Mind on Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:38 am

Greetings,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:34 am
Maybe it applies to intelligence too but no well respected study has been done .. is my point.
OK, and as I said, it's not something I have closely followed. However, Circle5 just said that he is "well informed on" ... "the 0.7-0.3 heredity-environment number" so maybe he can point to something?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:34 am
No, but it does take a brain that's been broiled in Cultural Marxism to insist without any evidence whatsoever that the probability of this is 1.0.
I agree. It's strange how nobody would argue that german shepards have the same average IQ as other dogs or that raves have the same average IQ of crows.
That would apply to something such as strength and speed.
Sure, it applies to that too.
Maybe it applies to intelligence too but no well respected study has been done .. is my point.
:juggling:
OK, and as I said, it's not something I have closely followed. However, Circle5 just said that he is "well informed on" ... "the 0.7-0.3 heredity-environment number" so maybe he can point to something?
Yes, I can point to this and there are many other studies on the matter:
https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Herita ... ation.html
This is actually attempted to be a refutation of the argument, but it contains all the sources in there since it quoted them in order to refute them.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:44 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:30 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:16 am
If it was so then caste system was correct. Fair skinned North Indian Brahmins were better than dark skinned indigenous population and the former deserved to know the Vedas and latter did not.

Utter nonsense!!

:namaste:
Both these groups are caucasian. Even if the groups would not share the same race and same average IQ, it would be stupid and inefficient thing to do since individual variation in IQ is huge and many people from the lower caste would have higher IQ than many brahmins.

Did you read the adjective indigenous? The Dravids, the tribals

Image

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:47 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:44 am
Did you read the adjective indigenous? The Dravids, the tribals

Image

:namaste:
This again proves you know nothing about race. Please inform yourself better before engaging in discussions about race. A person coming here claiming the south indians (dravidians) are not caucasian as a race, even posting a picture with a clearly caucasian person attempting to refute the idea, all this while being indian himself - shows he simply knows nothing about race.

Both south indians and north indians are caucasian. Learn the basics before adventuring into advanced discussions about the subject.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:47 am
This again proves you know nothing about race.
Thank God I don't !!

and please read history

Dravidians were not caucasians. They were original inhabitants of India arriving in the subcontinent around 50,000 years ago.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:57 am

Greetings No_Mind,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 am
Dravidians were not caucasians. They were original inhabitants of India arriving in the subcontinent around 50,000 years ago.
Were they genetically predisposed to exceptional batting skills?

8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:00 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 am
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:47 am
This again proves you know nothing about race.
Thank God I don't !!

and please read history

Dravidians were not caucasians. They were original inhabitants of India arriving in the subcontinent around 50,000 years ago.

:namaste:
Sorry to break it out to you but that's just ultra-nationalist indian alternative history that I am already informed about. If it makes you feel better, we romanians also have an alternative history loved by a big percent of population where we actually founded Rome. There are 4 other countries with such alternative histories claiming to have founded Rome besides us, and don't even get me started on what the hungarians are teaching in schools.

The facts: Darvidians are a group of caucasians that migrated there 5000 years ago (just 3 zeroes after the 5). There is speculation that there might have been some super small racial mixing with the very few truly indigenous people related to australian aboriginals that might or might not have lived there when they arrived. The picture you've posted with a probably 99%-100% caucasian woman speaks more than 1000 words.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:57 am
Greetings No_Mind,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 am
Dravidians were not caucasians. They were original inhabitants of India arriving in the subcontinent around 50,000 years ago.
Were they genetically predisposed to exceptional batting skills?

8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
Probably not :lol:

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:03 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:00 am
Sorry to break it out to you but that's just ultra-nationalist indian alternative history that I am already informed about. If it makes you feel better, we romanians also have an alternative history loved by a big percent of population where we actually founded Rome. There are 4 other countries with such alternative histories claiming to have founded Rome besides us, and don't even get me started on what the hungarians are teaching in schools.

The facts: Darvidians are a group of caucasians that migrated there 5000 years ago (just 3 zeroes after the 5). There is speculation that there might have been some super small racial mixing with the very few truly indigenous people related to australian aboriginals that might or might not have lived there when they arrived. The picture you've posted with a probably 99%-100% caucasian woman speaks more than 1000 words.
There were original inhabitants who arrived 50,000 years ago

and later inhabitants who arrived few thousand years ago

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India
Modern humans settled India in multiple waves of early migrations, over tens of millennia. The first migrants came with the Southern Coastal dispersal, ca. 60,000 years ago, whereafter complex migrations within south and southeast Asia took place. With the onset of farming the population of India changed significantly by the migration of Iranian agri-culturalists and the Indo-European, while the migrations of the Munda people and the Tibeto-Burmese speaking people also added new elements.
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:05 am

Is there anyone else on this round earth except indians and australians that failed to catch the news about soccer being invented ?

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:08 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:03 am
There were original inhabitants who arrived 50,000 years ago

and later inhabitants who arrived few thousand years ago

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India
Modern humans settled India in multiple waves of early migrations, over tens of millennia. The first migrants came with the Southern Coastal dispersal, ca. 60,000 years ago, whereafter complex migrations within south and southeast Asia took place. With the onset of farming the population of India changed significantly by the migration of Iranian agri-culturalists and the Indo-European, while the migrations of the Munda people and the Tibeto-Burmese speaking people also added new elements.
:namaste:
It's easy to check this out through genetic research, especially since the big genome project have been done in recent years. Whatever humans might have migrated there 60.000 years ago, their genes have not been preserved. Indians of today have nothing to do with them, neither the south ones neither the north ones. And your picture also proves that.

Note the 1-2% of ADN does not make one a different race. Europeans and asians have 1-3% neantherthal and denisovan DNA.
Last edited by Circle5 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:10 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:08 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:03 am
There were original inhabitants who arrived 50,000 years ago

and later inhabitants who arrived few thousand years ago

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India
Modern humans settled India in multiple waves of early migrations, over tens of millennia. The first migrants came with the Southern Coastal dispersal, ca. 60,000 years ago, whereafter complex migrations within south and southeast Asia took place. With the onset of farming the population of India changed significantly by the migration of Iranian agri-culturalists and the Indo-European, while the migrations of the Munda people and the Tibeto-Burmese speaking people also added new elements.
:namaste:
It's easy to check this out through genetic research, especially since the big genome project have been done in recent years. Whatever humans might have migrated there 60.000 years ago, their genes have not been preserved. Indians of today have nothing to do with them, neither the south ones neither the north ones. And your picture also proves that.
Bro, I cannot share all pics due to copyright issues

Come to India and I will take you to South India where in some places you will feel you are walking in Uganda.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:12 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:10 am
Bro, I cannot share all pics due to copyright issues

Come to India and I will take you to South India where in some places you will feel you are walking in Uganda.

:namaste:
I certainly do not doubt that. But it might be because of the GDP per capita being similar :D

Also note the 1-2% of ADN does not make one a different race. Europeans and asians have 1-3% neantherthal and denisovan DNA.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:14 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:12 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:10 am
Bro, I cannot share all pics due to copyright issues

Come to India and I will take you to South India where in some places you will feel you are walking in Uganda.

:namaste:
I certainly do not doubt that. But it might be because of the GDP per capita being similar :D
GDP of "black" South India is double that of "fair" North India
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:12 am
Also note the 1-2% of ADN does not make one a different race. Europeans and asians have 1-3% neantherthal and denisovan DNA.
I know I watch news about White House daily

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:21 am

Appearently there might have been australoid people in India long time ago in the pleistocene. I am not the most informed on that period, all I know is that almost nothing has remained of them and both south and north indians are caucasian. The australoid DNA is about 1-2% tough there has been some time since researching this matter so better to double check.

The map of the 5 races after pleistocene. Note how the Pigmies have been massacred and are now literally hunted to extinction by sub-saharans. There has probably been more fuss about some animal species hunted to extinction then about this humanoid race in the same situation. If it's not white people that are hunting them, they just don't matter since the story doesn't fit the preffered narrative
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:22 am

As usual, I'm surprised that no one has challenged a statement, but just took it as a fact to be discussed.
Hey Circle 5: Can you prove to me that "the average Indian has an IQ of 85, but the average emigrant has an IQ of 114?" That was your basic point. But let me ask you this:

How the Hell do you know that?

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:23 am

alan wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:22 am
As usual, I'm surprised that no one has challenged a statement, but just took it as a fact to be discussed.
Hey Circle 5: Can you prove to me that "the average Indian has an IQ of 85, but the average emigrant has an IQ of 114?" That was your basic point. But let me ask you this:

How the Hell do you know that?
He is a Romanian. Dracula tells him all of these strange facts and theories

BTW, was Dracula caucasian and what was his IQ?

Circle5 are you on DW from 4 AM? Now it is 5:30 there ..

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:32 am

alan wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:22 am
As usual, I'm surprised that no one has challenged a statement, but just took it as a fact to be discussed.
Hey Circle 5: Can you prove to me that "the average Indian has an IQ of 85, but the average emigrant has an IQ of 114?" That was your basic point. But let me ask you this:

How the Hell do you know that?
Well....
By 2006, Lynn had tabulated 620 IQ studies in 133 different countries. He clustered the countries into the ten genetic groupings identified by L. L. Cavalli-Sforza et al. in their mammoth 1994 History and Geography of Human Genes. The world average IQ had to be calibrated downwards to 90, as shown in the map.
https://www.vdare.com/articles/indians- ... on-average

This is covering the 85 IQ side of the question. As for the 114 one, I am unable to find the statistic. These are things I have checked long ago.

While searching for this answer I've also found something that I have forgot. The topic about IQ of different castes in india. Note the concept of "genetic ceiling" that I have forgot to mention. This reffers to the IQ they would have given proper conditions such as eradication of malnutrition. That 0.3 that is environmental.

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-puzzle-o ... -and-jews/

Most those immigrants are from the high IQ caste, though as I've said, I have not been able to find the study in question in such a short time.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:44 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:23 am

Circle5 are you on DW from 4 AM? Now it is 5:30 there ..

:namaste:
Yes I have a bad sleeping schedule and normally go to sleep at 5. Though the recent topic on the welness section of the forum about sunlight convinced me to change it.

As for the other question, check one of the quotes from my last message:
By 2006, Lynn had tabulated 620 IQ studies in 133 different countries. He clustered the countries into the ten genetic groupings identified by L. L. Cavalli-Sforza et al. in their mammoth 1994 History and Geography of Human Genes. The world average IQ had to be calibrated downwards to 90, as shown in the map.
As I've said, all IQ studies ever since they were invented say the same thing. It's only the bogus nazist claims about skull shapes and a ton of other trash that has been discredited but the IQ differences among races has always shown up in all tests made ever since IQ tests have been invented.

Can I ask you now a question of my own ? Do you believe german shepards have the same average IQ as any other dog ? Do you believe crows have the same average IQ as ravens ?

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