Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:13 pm

Indeed, G (general inteligence) tests have nothing to do with math. Take for example the only good IQ test avaliable on the internet: www.IQtest.dk
Nothing at all involving math. A person from any country will have equal chance at the test.

What is strange here is how some people could think that all human races or populations on earth have equal IQ. It's such a stupid idea. Has anyone ever thought that all dogs have equal average IQ ? That german shepards are not smarter than the rest ? Has anyone though that all great apes have equal average IQ ? All birds equal average IQ ? What would be the probability of that ? How on earth could one even imagine such a thing ? And if that wasn't enough, how could a population that has not even invented the wheel have the same average IQ as others ???

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by santa100 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:48 pm

What is even stranger here is how some people could think that certain human race or population have higher IQ than the rest while it's so apparent that the bricks used to build our 21st century human civilization house were shaped and molded by the hands of people of all races.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by DNS » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:55 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:13 pm
Indeed, G (general inteligence) tests have nothing to do with math. Take for example the only good IQ test avaliable on the internet: www.IQtest.dk
Nothing at all involving math. A person from any country will have equal chance at the test.

What is strange here is how some people could think that all human races or populations on earth have equal IQ. It's such a stupid idea. Has anyone ever thought that all dogs have equal average IQ ? That german shepards are not smarter than the rest ? Has anyone though that all great apes have equal average IQ ? All birds equal average IQ ? What would be the probability of that ? How on earth could one even imagine such a thing ? And if that wasn't enough, how could a population that has not even invented the wheel have the same average IQ as others ???
Yes, of course there are differences, even wide differences among individuals, but when you start talking about large groups, the differences between groups go way lower. Obviously someone like Magnus Carlsen or Kasparov have very high IQ, but that doesn't make every other Norwegian or Russian have high IQ like them. There are big differences among individuals, but they start to go away when you start comparing large groupings of people.

The fact that some groups allegedly score lower than others certainly has some to do with the testing. A person who is raised on a subsistence farm, learns everything about subsistence farming and nothing else, never goes to school, never learns basic math, not even arithmetic will always score lower than someone who has finished at least high school in a developed nation. Many tests do include basic math and arithmetic type functions.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:30 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:55 pm
The fact that some groups allegedly score lower than others certainly has some to do with the testing. A person who is raised on a subsistence farm, learns everything about subsistence farming and nothing else, never goes to school, never learns basic math, not even arithmetic will always score lower than someone who has finished at least high school in a developed nation. Many tests do include basic math and arithmetic type functions.
But as others have pointed out, white kids already outperform black kids by the age of 9 to 12 months. These differences are present ever since that age up. You test them at 2 year old, 3 years, 4 years, the difference is still there. So one can not blame this on school or anything of that sort.

The fact that some groups have not invented the wheel or some have never built any cities (except great zimbabwe that is basically a wall as big as a supermarket) is real life evidence of this difference. Let's stop and think about the invention of the wheel. How did it happen ? Some wiseguy probably saw a round little rock spinning down a hill or something. Then he made the connection. He started making something similar out of wood. Then he made the second connection about how this could be used for transportation. The wheel was discovered in many places by independent groups that could not communicate with one another.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:26 am

Circle5 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:30 pm
But as others have pointed out, white kids already outperform black kids by the age of 9 to 12 months. These differences are present ever since that age up. You test them at 2 year old, 3 years, 4 years, the difference is still there. So one can not blame this on school or anything of that sort.
Are you saying some races are inherently superior? Some races are born intelligent? Wasn't there a big war about it back in 1939?

So after 75 years we are back to blond hair and blue eyes theory?

Fake news - how can you measure IQ at 9-12 months. Show the source or stop spreading racist, fake news.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:31 am

Greetings,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:26 am
Are you saying some races are inherently superior? Some races are born intelligent? Wasn't there a big war about it back in 1939?
Lest there be any over-reaction, it's worth keeping in mind that what has been discussed in this topic are "distribution curves".

If one race were "inherently" superior in terms of intelligence, then the least intelligent person from the so-called superior race, would logically need to be more intelligent than the most intelligent person from the so-called inferior race.

I see no one making such claims.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:31 am
Greetings,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:26 am
Are you saying some races are inherently superior? Some races are born intelligent? Wasn't there a big war about it back in 1939?
Lest there be any over-reaction, it's worth keeping in mind that what has been discussed in this topic are "distribution curves".

If one race were "inherently" superior in terms of intelligence, then the least intelligent person from the so-called superior race, would logically need to be more intelligent than the most intelligent person from the so-called inferior race.

I see no one making such claims.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Circle5 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:30 pm
white kids already outperform black kids by the age of 9 to 12 months.
is an out and out racist comment

is this Stormfront or DW?

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:52 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:35 am
is an out and out racist comment

is this Stormfront or DW?

:namaste:
Studies also show that transracial adoptees from asian to white family have on average higher IQ than whites. The same applies for whites adopted by black family.

A race being superior to another ? It depends on what exactly are you measuring. A race can be superior in inteligenge to another race, something that can be measured with average IQs. A race can be superior if physical strenth than another race, a thing that can be measured through muscle-mass, height, etc. But a race being superior to another in general, that is not a claim I have ever made. Is a german shepard dog superior to a romanian mioritic sheperd ? No, they are just different, even though in some aspects one might be superior than the other on average.

"Superior" is also a politically charged word and an unnatural one to use. In everyday conversations, how often do you hear people say "a german shepard is superior to a mioritic sheppard ?" or "americans are superior in economic development than romanians or indians " ?
Last edited by Circle5 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:54 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:52 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:35 am
is an out and out racist comment

is this Stormfront or DW?

:namaste:
Studies also show that transracial adoptees from asian to white family have on average higher IQ than whites. The same applies for whites adopted by black family.

A race being superior to another ? It depends on what exactly are you measuring. A race can be superior in inteligenge to another race, something that can be measured with average IQs. A race can be superior if physical strenth than another race, a thing that can be measured through muscle-mass, height, etc. But a race being superior to another in general, that is not a claim I have ever made. Is a german shepard dog superior to a romanian mioritic sheperd ? No, they are just different, even though in some aspects one might be superior than the other on average.
Show sources

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:02 am

Circle5 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:30 pm
But as others have pointed out, white kids already outperform black kids by the age of 9 to 12 months. These differences are present ever since that age up. You test them at 2 year old, 3 years, 4 years, the difference is still there. So one can not blame this on school or anything of that sort.
There’s still no good reason to believe black-white IQ differences are due to genes

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:03 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:54 am
Show sources

:namaste:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota ... tion_Study
Harvard psychologists took a look at how black children adopted by well off upper-middle class white families at a very young age perform on IQ tests once they grow up in white families with good socioeconomic conditions. Black children adopted by white parents average 89 on IQ tests at age 17 (slightly better than the 85 average for blacks nationally). White children who grew up in the same households and had white biological parents on average scored 109. Even with the same socioeconomic upbringing, the racial IQ gap remains.

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study examined the IQ test scores of 130 black or interracial children adopted by advantaged white families. The aim of the study was to determine the contribution of environmental and genetic factors to the poor performance of black children on IQ tests as compared to white children. The studies' general findings were that the IQs of children of a particular race did not differ significantly depending on whether they were raised by their biological parents or by adoptive parents of a different race. The gap between black and white IQ scores remained even if growing up in the same family.
There’s still no good reason to believe black-white IQ differences are due to genes
One can always find a political study to quote against the overwhealming studies on the matter. This is a political subject and such things are normal to exist especially since one of the side is so aggresive that it's doing it's best to censor the subject. The deen of Harward was fired for answering that average IQ differences might be responsible for black students grades being lower on average.

Even if this subject would not be political and political zealots would not exist in this field, it would be normal for different opinions to exist since rarely is there unanimity reached in science. I am not the type of person to claim "this is what the overwhealming majority of IQ scientist say, therefore believe this without question". Instead, what one should do is to use his own brain and read carefully the methodology of the studies, read more than one study and try to objectively understand the problem as best as he can. There are a couple of good studies on the heredity of IQ done with good methodology.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:16 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:03 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:54 am
Show sources

:namaste:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota ... tion_Study
Harvard psychologists took a look at how black children adopted by well off upper-middle class white families at a very young age perform on IQ tests once they grow up in white families with good socioeconomic conditions. Black children adopted by white parents average 89 on IQ tests at age 17 (slightly better than the 85 average for blacks nationally). White children who grew up in the same households and had white biological parents on average scored 109. Even with the same socioeconomic upbringing, the racial IQ gap remains.

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study examined the IQ test scores of 130 black or interracial children adopted by advantaged white families. The aim of the study was to determine the contribution of environmental and genetic factors to the poor performance of black children on IQ tests as compared to white children. The studies' general findings were that the IQs of children of a particular race did not differ significantly depending on whether they were raised by their biological parents or by adoptive parents of a different race. The gap between black and white IQ scores remained even if growing up in the same family.
It is from 1976! That was a very different society.

The black children were presumably from families/parents who were at a socioeconomic disadvantage thus leading to adoption. The question of early life hardship and epigenetics comes up.

Where is the reverse study? White children from poor white families given up for adoption brought up by upper middle class whites? Unless we have both how can we judge the effect of early life hardship and epigenetics?

Where is the control group?

You are reaching the conclusion that an entire race is stupid based on study of 130 individuals in one state of USA, 42 years ago when Lenon was still alive and US had just exited Vietnam?

And where is the source for 9-12 months claim?

There is no well respected study that shows intelligence is a genetically inherited trait.

If it was so then caste system was correct. Fair skinned North Indian Brahmins were better than dark skinned indigenous population and the former deserved to know the Vedas and latter did not.

Utter nonsense!!

In India blacks and whites (we have them too) score same in school when they are from similar socioeconomic backgrounds.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:27 am

Greetings No_Mind,
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:16 am
There is no well respected study that shows intelligence is a genetically inherited trait.
I've not closely followed the history of this debate (because, for one thing, I'm not overly interested in it) but isn't it a commonly accepted maxim that human development is an admixture of nature and nurture, of which genetics falls under the banner of nature?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:30 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:16 am
If it was so then caste system was correct. Fair skinned North Indian Brahmins were better than dark skinned indigenous population and the former deserved to know the Vedas and latter did not.

Utter nonsense!!

:namaste:
Both these groups are caucasian. Even if the groups would not share the same race and same average IQ, it would be stupid and inefficient thing to do since individual variation in IQ is huge and many people from the lower caste would have higher IQ than many brahmins.
There is no well respected study that shows intelligence is a genetically inherited trait.
:juggling: :juggling: :juggling:

There are quite a few studies on heredity of IQ and I have researched this problem in detail 1-2 years ago and search for all studies on the matter. Only a couple of good studies with good methodology exist and they found a 0.7 is genetical and 0.3 environmental. Also, children over a certain age do not change IQ. Environment can only play a role at a small age and not in adolescence, this is accepted by all studies.

I will search for the studies on heredity of IQ and will post them here.
And where is the source for 9-12 months claim?
True, no source for this. Somebody else made this claim without posting a source and I have just repeated it without verifying it. You are right on this, wrong way for me to proceed.
It is from 1976! That was a very different society.
There are many other studies except that one. Even in the PC studies they start with "despite all the studies on this matter", accepting that this is the general consensus. This also corresponds with the 0.7-0.3 heredity-environment numbers that I am well informed on.
You are reaching the conclusion that an entire race is stupid based on study of 130 individuals in one state of USA?
1. I am not reaching the conclusion that a certain race is stupid. I am making the conclusion that differences in average IQ of races exist and that they are in big part attributed to genetics.
2. I am not making that conclusion based on that 1976 study that is just a random link that popped up on top of google when you asked about a source. I am making that conclusion based on hundreds of tests done ever since IQ testing had begun that all say the same things. I am also using observation from real life when making that statement. (aboriginals not discovering the wheel and some not even knowing how to make fire, sub-saharans never building any cities) I also find it incredible how some might believe all humanoid races have the same average IQ, all dog breeds have same average IQ, all birds have same average IQ, etc. when the probability for such a thing is extraordinary small. Even without a billion studies in the field all saying the same thing ever since IQ testing was invented, it does not take a Stu Ungar brain to measure the likeliness of such a probability.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:34 am

Greetings,
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:30 am
It does not take a Stu Ungar brain to measure the likeliness of such a probability.
No, but it does take a brain that's been broiled in Cultural Marxism to insist without any evidence whatsoever that the probability of this is 1.0.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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