Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:32 am

Greetings Circle5,
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:29 am
Ok, the first link that comes to my mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:23 am


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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:31 am

If you get nothing out of this post, yet now dig "Adam Ruins Everything", I will be happy. It's a cult show here in the U.S.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Bundokji » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:14 pm

This debate is somehow similar to the one between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson about the meaning of truth.

Is there a truth separable from its consequences? my answer is yes and no!

Both sides of the debate have good points.
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:04 pm

The question of whether there is such a thing as IQ - in the sense of an abstracted intelligence independent of the culturally specific tools used to measure it - is extremely complicated, to say the least. I've had to use various IQ tests professionally from time to time, and a quick look at the research behind them shows that it is not something that one can make a quick judgement about. Just have a look at the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient
and you'll see that the area is a quagmire of contested views about concepts, meaning, and statistics. Almost any view, no matter how magisterial, can be undermined by the claim that somebody has forgotten some vital concept, or is not up to speed regarding some abstruse area of statistical analysis. Most people wanting to use or debunk the concept will take their cues from the literature and the various debates, and will remember "facts" from best-sellers like The Bell Curve or more left-wing articles like this one from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... ay/11/art1

Where there is a will, there is a way to come up with a theory that fits one's world-view.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by santa100 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:42 pm

There was an interesting BBC documentary called "Battle of the Brains" where they picked a group of 7 people who are all top-notch professionals in their fields: quantum physicist, fighter pilot, artist, etc. and had them take bunch of IQ tests. And the result was pretty predictable: the quantum physicist got the highestIQ while the artist got one of the lowest. When asked about the significance of the IQ test, the quantum guy simply brushed it aside and said it doesn't prove anything useful. He said he's not surprised that he got the highest IQ simply because he's been doing lots of mental tasks and even much much more challenging ones days in and days out as part of his job! For the world class artist, obviously math and logic take a much lower priority than imagination and creativity. It's yet to be conclusive in the research into whether the quantum guy already possessed top IQ and that resulted in him working in quantum physics field and got the highest score on the IQ test; or whether the rigorous and mentally challenging environment of his work boosts his IQ and hence resulted in the highest test score. This is why they had to come up with a new metric called EQ (Emotional Intelligence) because IQ is certainly not a sufficient metric to measure people's "intelligence".

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:16 pm

I think if people were hiring based on IQ tests and personality profiling it would make the society run more efficiently. High IQ does not guarantee non-confusion or wisdom but it helps with problem solving in general.

I would also argue that the baseline is predetermined when it comes to IQ. What is very much unclear to me is how much deviation from the baseline is possible and how much improvement is possible due to development of wisdom and concentration.

I would also much rather be a wise person with a very low IQ than an unwise person with a very high IQ. I think the former would have a lot better expected result in the long term due to following a superior strategy.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:05 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:56 pm

This is such a big problem that it shapes the whole universe of a population. It is not some small insignificant fact that one can just ignore or get rid of with some "IQ is relative, it doesn't measure anything important" line. The life of a population who has not discovered the wheel or, in some cases, not even fire, is a life much different from a population that even has big and complicated ships, complicated art, etc.
Yes, the benefits are that they live with no motor accidents, no burns, no disasters at sea, and no art critics! :tongue:

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:05 pm
no burns
I think you have not clicked on DNS link and don't know about the ecological disaster the ones that did know how to make fire had caused
and no art critics
And what is life without them ? Why live in the first place ? :shrug:

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by LG2V » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:19 pm

Here is my perspective, as an African-American with some knowledge regarding IQ testing:

A lot of the Race & IQ stuff is just scientific racism, and nonsense at that. Most of the world's "races", particularly the ones touted as being such at the top, haven't had the sort of meaningful genetic isolation necessary to produce such fundamental biological differences.

Cheddar Man, the anthropological "father" of the British who lived 10,000 years ago, for example, was Black. There exists Mediterranean artwork that depicts and describes Black people on the European continent even 3-5,000 years ago; not to mention the abundance of Blacks in Egypt, Phoenecia, and Mesopotamia. There's even research to suggest that Black people have culturally existed for quite some time in East and Southeast Asia. Not to mention that there are plenty of people on the Indian subcontinent with skin as pigmented as mine, whose "non-blackness" is someone arbitrary.

But, historical analysis aside, a lot of this just comes from either delusion or outright dishonesty; most IQ tests, and testers, don't admit the enormous element that cultural hegemony plays into their testing. It's not exactly ludicrous that a test written by a foreign group of people, designed to revolve around their own views and notions, that is often indifferent, and sometimes inimical, to the cultural concerns of others, would produce such skewed results.

This even occurs with so-called "objective" questions, such as questions regarding Math, shapes and logic.

For example, a common analogy is: "White is to good as Black is to _____ ."

Here' another example. The visual-spatial questions on IQ tests often involve how many tricks you can do with a Star of David. I'm not picking on Jews. After all, this site's admin is a Jew and so are many other people who I respect and admire. It's just one of the funnier observations that I've come across during my experience with these tests. Two inverted triangles resting on each other is, in fact, not a culturally objective shape, and many of the derivative questions are skewed in favor of people who would frequently apply their intellect in the direction of such shape manipulation. That's just one example.

Another example that massively impacts math and reading is linguistic prestige. When Black children, particularly Black minority children, grow up, they are told that their peoples' ways of speaking and natural grammar is "wrong", "incorrect", or "ghetto". Many of them are stripped of a native language with which to retaliate. The "official" language spelling reflects another culture's speech and not theirs; and from a linguistic perspective, their way of talking is equally effective and valid, and yet it is culturally denigrated.

So, the phrases:

"three and two is"
"three and two are"
"three and two be"

express the same meaning (3 + 2 = _ ), but they provoke different reactions from children who grow up in households that speak differently; yet the way that they speak is considered the "same" language, albeit a different form. And this is a lifelong burden. It's not feasible to ask children to excel at tests made by cultures that still haven't given up on their hostility towards them.

A lot of the language and expectations in today's intellectual discussions are based on cultural intuitions and jargon that are not necessarily the only ways of looking at things, or even the most efficient ones.

For example, try to get a bunch of White people to translate rap lyrics. You would be amazed at how many people with "85" and "90" IQs you would find. I'm joking, of course. :tongue:

As a side note, I believe that the average "good" American rapper regularly produces work that is more sophisticated than that of the greatest writers in English literature. Not joking.

Some leading African philosophers have proven that a lot of Western logic, particularly tautologies, rests on linguistic constructs that are redundant, or rather, insipid in other languages. And that's not to diminish the work of great Western logicians, many of whom I admire, respect, and have learned from; it's just to provide another perspective.

There's a whole set of cultural expectations for certain people, especially Black people, to underperform, as well as widespread hostility towards them if they happen to do too well.

There's also the issue of who is doing the testing. Psychologists, as a whole, are around 84% White, 5% Black, 5% Hispanic, and 4% Asian, and across the board, they're mostly women. Naturally, Black people, especially Black men and Black boys, aren't being tested, or even educated in general, by individuals who intuitively understand their culture and can understand the nuances in intellect between members of their sub-population.

An interesting refutation to the genetic argument is that African immigrants tend to have educational attainments suggestive of higher IQs than both American Blacks and American Whites. However, the primary genetic difference between American Blacks and African immigrants is that American Blacks have a higher White admixture. Why is this? I believe that the difference isn't to do with any sort of African "brain-drain", or other form of selective genetics. Rather, it's because these people can view majority non-Black cultures as "foreign", and retreat to an intellectual "native space" with its own validated norms and language. They can also benefit from the higher levels of wealth, nutrition, and access to education that Western countries enjoy.

I think that the subgroups of people who perform poorly on today's tests generally come from population groups that have been deprived of such freedom, and have had to made do in foreign territory. That's why many people, I believe, think that the "race realism" testing is nonsense; the intuitive debunking of such skewed science comes off as common sense.
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:05 pm
no burns
I think you have not clicked on DNS link and don't know about the ecological disaster the ones that did know how to make fire had caused
and no art critics
And what is life without them ? Why live in the first place ? :shrug:
The path of the ironist passes through some very stony places indeed, but my steps will not falter... :|

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:48 pm

LG2V wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:19 pm
Cheddar Man, the anthropological "father" of the British who lived 10,000 years ago, for example, was Black. There exists Mediterranean artwork that depicts and describes Black people on the European continent even 3-5,000 years ago; not to mention the abundance of Blacks in Egypt, Phoenecia, and Mesopotamia. There's even research to suggest that Black people have culturally existed for quite some time in East and Southeast Asia. Not to mention that there are plenty of people on the Indian subcontinent with skin as pigmented as mine, whose "non-blackness" is someone arbitrary.
And what exactly has skin color to do with race ? Ethiopians, somalians and eritreans are as black as possible, yet they are caucasian as a race. Skin color has to do with the climate of the area. Race has to do with isolation of a specific population. Ethipians, somalians, greeks, spanish, arabs descend from the same group that left caucasus region and have always been connected with them. They have not been isolated by a huge desert for thousands of years.
An interesting refutation to the genetic argument is that African immigrants tend to have educational attainments suggestive of higher IQs than both American Blacks and American Whites. However, the primary genetic difference between American Blacks and African immigrants is that American Blacks have a higher White admixture. Why is this? I believe that the difference isn't to do with any sort of African "brain-drain", or other form of selective genetics. Rather, it's because these people can view majority non-Black cultures as "foreign", and retreat to an intellectual "native space" with its own validated norms and language. They can also benefit from the higher levels of wealth, nutrition, and access to education that Western countries enjoy.
The average IQ in India is 85 (similar to american black), yet the IQ of indian immigrants to USA is 114.

As for trying to refute IQ testing as useless, I fail to see how G (general inteligence) can be refuted like that. Linguistical intelligence can of course be refuted like that, that's why it's important for people to take their test in their native language, be it english, spanish, french, etc. The fact that there are probably no tests in american black dialect that you are reffering to indeed is a valid point. But there is nothing you can do about the G (general intelligence) that is the most important aspect of IQ testing. That is free of any culturally bias and can be taken by people from any country, no matter how much one might try to stretch it with start-of-david type of arguments. By this logic, arabs should be exceptional at math due to arab numbers being invented by their culture :juggling:

An even better refutation is real life itself. Aboriginal australians did not discover the wheel and some did not know how to make fire. Best city the sub-saharan africans built was the so called "Great Zimbabwe". All this while the egyptians or nubians (ethiopians) had flourishing empires and cities while living in the same climate.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by santa100 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:01 am

Circle5 wrote:Aboriginal australians did not discover the wheel and some did not know how to make fire. Best city the sub-saharan africans built was the so called "Great Zimbabwe". All this while the egyptians or nubians (ethiopians) had flourishing empires and cities while living in the same climate.
But since:
Circle5 wrote:The average IQ in India is 85 (similar to american black), yet the IQ of Indian immigrants to USA is 114.
Then obviously there're various other factors that create this 29-point jump that has absolutely nothing to do with race.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:06 am

Greetings,
Circle5 wrote:The average IQ in India is 85 (similar to american black), yet the IQ of indian immigrants to USA is 114.
santa100 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:01 am
Then obviously there're various other factors that create this 29-point jump that has absolutely nothing to do with race.
Of course... it's "skilled migration".

Someone with an IQ of 114 rather than an IQ of 85 is far more likely to have marketable and desirable skills.

This process is also known as "brain drain" or "human capital flight"

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:10 am

if the IQ tests were designed and written by black people, I'm sure blacks would test higher.
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