Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

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alan
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Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:37 am

Right after 9/11, Sam Harris wrote book which caught my attention. Thought he was making a good point, and that he was now a leading American Intellectual.
Since, then, though, he has declined, in my opinion. Maybe I was wrong about him? Sam Harris is still a very smart man. Not completely sure if his work is out finding the truth, or making himself a great Intellectual.
In this conversation (debate?) he goes up against Ezra Klein. Ezra is as smart as anyone you will ever meet. He's a journalist, though. I'm thinking now that we need more smart journalism, not more people trying to prove a point for the sake of their own ideology, or opinions. Or, perhaps, built-in, unaware bias.

Ezra doesn't go out of his way to position himself as a thought leader, but is a smart guy, and at least the intellectual equal of Sam. Two heavyweights go at it--and do so in an appropriate manner. I like this kind of stuff.
So, if you do to, take a listen, or read the transcript. Let me know what you think about it.

Long, and not an easy read. But I love conversations like this. Stimulates the mind.
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17210248/s ... pt-podcast

alan
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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:22 am

Apologize, my post came up twice. Deleted the second version. Carry on.

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:27 am

Greetings Alan,

What is the subject of the discussion?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:05 am

Well I guess you could determine that by the title of the article.

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:11 am

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:05 am
Well I guess you could determine that by the title of the article.
Or, since you're starting a new topic, you could tell us what the topic is, rather than merely tell us who the two participants in the conversation are...

See also: A guide on how to get the most out of your new topics

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:14 am

If you click the link, you will see the topic. That is not so hard.
Unless, you are trying to avoid commenting on this.

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:22 am

Feel free to edit my title to make it more in line with what you want. Maybe then more people will be interested.

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:33 am

Ok, how about this: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.
That might be better.

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Re: Interesting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:58 am

Or, listen to it. You'll have to put up with those American accents. But it is worth your time.

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Re: Intersting conversation between Ezra Klein and Sam Harris.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:04 am

Greetings,
alan wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:33 am
Ok, how about this: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.
That might be better.
Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:04 am

Some facts about average IQ:

australian aboriginal: 59
bushman:61
sub saharan: 70
caucasian: 100
east asian: 106
ashkanazi jew: 126

The deen of Harward was forced to resign because of PC censorship of these facts. He was asked why do black students have, on average, lower grades and he replied that it might have to do with differences in average IQ.

The fact that some guys in the past used this to justify slavery in north america should not make us censor science. Those same guys used christianity to justify their actions. (slaves have no souls idea) Does that mean we should now censor christianity ? Children have lower IQ than adults and nobody seems to have a problem with that. Usually it is people with higher IQ than us that we tend to be jealous of and develop hatred towards.

As for those in the "IQ means nothing" camp or "IQ is just a social construction and it just means you can pass a certain test" - they should ask themselves why were some groups of people unable to learn how to make a fire or invent the wheel if this thing is just some random number on a paper.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:12 am

Greetings Circle5,

Can you please provide a link to substantiate what you've said here?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:21 am

A link ? All studies ever conducted since the beginning of IQ testing found the same results. All IQ scientist agree on this. This is simply what science says.

What is strange is how some people would actually believe this to be otherwise. For example look at all the birds flying in the sky. Imagine what is the propability of all species having the same average IQ.

In the same way, groups of humans populations that have been isolated for long periods of time have developed differently. Note this does not have to do with skin color. For example people from Ethiopia, Somalia or Eritrea are as black as they get, yet they are caucasian as a race, same as arabs, greeks and spaniards are caucasians despite having darker skin than romanians, while romanians have darker skin than english or norwegians. Race has nothing to do with skin color, it has to do with isolation of a given population for long periods of time.

The thing that has produced this difference in IQ is the 4 seasons weather. In order to survive in such conditions, people needed to save food for winter and practice complicated 4 seasons agriculture. This had, over time, changed the average IQ of that population through natural selection.

Ashkanazi jews managed to get to an astounding 126 average IQ in just 2000 years. Jews that are not ashkanazi have the normal IQ of 100.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:22 am

Greetings,
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:21 am
A link ? ...
Yes, just one will suffice.

If you take issue with this, please PM me explaining why.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Circle5
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Circle5 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:29 am

Ok, the first link that comes to my mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

I would add that in my country, these scientific facts are known by pretty much everybody and they could not care less about them. Telling this to someone is as uninteresting as saying watter = H2O. It's simply a fact like any other a billion facts. But in multicultural countries this scientific fact is politically charged and some want it censored.

When it comes to how this relates to multiculturalism, I would like to point out the issue is different than it looks. For example the average IQ in india is 85, yet the average IQ of indians emigrating to USA is 114. (due to vetting and other factors) The idea behind multiculturalism is that since these countries are highly developed, they should use this level of development to their advantage and attract talents from across the world. This is especially important since these developed nations happen to have a huge demographic problem that has to be ballanced with immigration in order to maintain their power and influence in the future. How successfully has this policy been implemented is up to debate. But even with this high amount of immigration, in my opinion the decline is inevitable. We should all remember that everything changes and we should simply enjoy the benefits of freedom, democracy, economic prosperity that we have now and stop thinking too much about the future. We should simply do what we can today and hope to prolong this good era as long as possible. There is little we can do about the demographic decline.
Last edited by Circle5 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:48 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:32 am

Greetings Circle5,
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:29 am
Ok, the first link that comes to my mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:23 am


alan
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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by alan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:31 am

If you get nothing out of this post, yet now dig "Adam Ruins Everything", I will be happy. It's a cult show here in the U.S.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Bundokji » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:14 pm

This debate is somehow similar to the one between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson about the meaning of truth.

Is there a truth separable from its consequences? my answer is yes and no!

Both sides of the debate have good points.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Race, IQ and Idenity politics: A debate.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:04 pm

The question of whether there is such a thing as IQ - in the sense of an abstracted intelligence independent of the culturally specific tools used to measure it - is extremely complicated, to say the least. I've had to use various IQ tests professionally from time to time, and a quick look at the research behind them shows that it is not something that one can make a quick judgement about. Just have a look at the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient
and you'll see that the area is a quagmire of contested views about concepts, meaning, and statistics. Almost any view, no matter how magisterial, can be undermined by the claim that somebody has forgotten some vital concept, or is not up to speed regarding some abstruse area of statistical analysis. Most people wanting to use or debunk the concept will take their cues from the literature and the various debates, and will remember "facts" from best-sellers like The Bell Curve or more left-wing articles like this one from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... ay/11/art1

Where there is a will, there is a way to come up with a theory that fits one's world-view.

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