"Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:58 am

My person was "forced" to spend 1 week, short before, in NY, to wait for a connect fly. Right after watching the mass of pride from above the twins of greed and hatred, bound together by delusion, right after *shaking my persons head* about the DLs mandala in the entery hall as a "blessing" (shortly done before, about all this bones around, build up by pride.

As than crossing a green-less tiny cemetery in the middle of Manhattens prife, with signs "keep out of grass", my person just know that there is less future to expect.

After watching live, while sick at home, having returned from Belize, my person knew propably never again enter a place where strong wrong view, strong materialism, believe in identity.

Blessed if one joins into another, blessed. Run to the Hills... before the Jains cut of the forest around. It's useless to try to be just another loosely hero of one day...

The Arrows of Thinking.
Last edited by Samana Johann 1 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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DooDoot
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:05 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 am
...
Regardless of the deception, the war was completely wrong at the time and, at least for me, a demonstration of the coup d'état that was 9/11; where all rational & moral Western democracy was lost. As an Australian, at the time, I was horrified (since Australia joined the UK & US group). I remember my devout Christian boss at work at the time, who I respected a lot & actually owe a lot to (in terms of livelihood). My boss said to me, in support of the war: "They are Muslims". I couldn't believe he would say that. The same lies continue today & will probably one day consume those who remain negligent to those lies because the 9/11 coup d'état defeated both international & domestic rule of law.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by JeffR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:20 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:27 am
I remember the shock and awe.....that was when the world trade center was destroyed.....right?
chownah
No. The world trade center was destroyed by Al-qaeda, which was lead by Osama bin Laden and supported by the Taliban government in Afghanistan; Sept. 2001. Shock & Awe, the US invasion of Iraq, happened 1.5 years later; March, 2003.

Bush did try to tie links between Sadam and Al-Qaeda; but couldn't since they were actually greater enemies than the USA & Al-Qaeda (The formation of Al-Qaeda was financed and armed by the USA after the Soviet invasion of Afghanastan in the 1980's as a gorilla army to fight the soviets). That's why he went with the WMD excuse, no one could prove them wrong and Bush was lost in a fantasy that the Iraqis would welcome the Americans so didn't think it would matter after no WMD would be found. Delusional thinking.
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945

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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 am

JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:20 am
The world trade center was destroyed by Al-qaeda, which was lead by Osama bin Laden and supported by the Taliban government in Afghanistan; Sept. 2001.
What did Osama bin Laden & the Taliban government in Afghanistan hope to gain by doing this?

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Kamran
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by Kamran » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:54 am

You make it sounds like Iran was the aggressor in that war. Explain more, thanks.
Iraq invaded Iran and took over the oil producing regions of Iran.

But after the first year or so, Iran had already pushed them back into their own borders.

At this point, Saddam asked for a permanent ceasefire. He asked to end the war.

Iran said it would only accept a ceasefire if Saddam was dead, Iraq had a new Government, and paid reparations.

That is, the Iranians needlessly extended the war for another 6 years.

They did this for internal political reasons (to get rid of internal opposition and consolidate the revolutionary regime under the guise of national defense), and because they thought they could win.

The Iraqi political parties currently running Iraq were created by Iran during this period to act as a type of "Vichy France" type government that they would install after defeating Iraq.

It took large-scale Chemical Weapon attacks and the US "accidentally" shooting down Iranian passenger airliners in the Persian Gulf for Iran to finally accept a ceasefire.

But as is turns out, the Iranians got a second chance to install their "Vichy France" thanks to the Shock and Awe and Stupidity of the Americans.
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:13 am

Kamran wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 am
Iran said it would only accept a ceasefire if Saddam was dead, Iraq had a new Government, and paid reparations. That is, the Iranians needlessly extended the war for another 6 years.
OK. Thanks. However, my intuition is Iran would have not taken over Syria if they won. Saddam was a US puppet & Iran probably wanted him out. If Hezbollah wanted to takeover Lebanon, nothing within Lebanon could stop them. I sense these nations (Iran. Syria, Lebanon ) simply want to live in peace, autonomy, without external interference. I would like to visit Syria. The pluralism there looks amazing. I have come to feel very close to the Syrian people following their tragedy. I feel the heart of Levantine culture is in Syria (rather than in Lebanon). I sense 'historical eternity' there; the mother of humanity. I sense they are different to Lebanese, who are more Westernized & conceited. I watched this video & found it inspiring:


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Kamran
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by Kamran » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:13 am
Kamran wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 am
Iran said it would only accept a ceasefire if Saddam was dead, Iraq had a new Government, and paid reparations. That is, the Iranians needlessly extended the war for another 6 years.
OK. Thanks. However, my intuition is Iran would have not taken over Syria if they won. Saddam was a US puppet & probably wanted him out. If Hezbollah wanted to takeover Lebanon, nothing within Lebanon could stop them. I sense these nations simply want to live in peace.
No they would not have invaded Syria.

The Iranians don't use brute force.

They build hospitals, schools, and housing for the poor.

They create local political parties to distribute these charities (with an armed wing, of course).

They take power this way.

Not with tanks.

They are religious clerics.
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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DooDoot
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:35 am

Kamran wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:28 am
They take power this way.
OK. Thanks. Like Hezbollah, who the Lebanese people have grown to like. Hassan Nasrallah gained many admirers regarding ISIS.


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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:01 am

alan wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:02 am
It's been 15 years since the idiotic and immoral invasion of Iraq.
At the time, I said it would be a catastrophic failure. I was right.

But who listened? Conservatives continued to believe what they are programmed to believe. Most of them got mad at me. No one learned, no one listened. And now, things just get worse.
Why? Because most people are just God Dam Ignorant as Hell.
You keep saying that, and nothing changes.
So who's just God Dam ignorant as Hell ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by JeffR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 am
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:20 am
The world trade center was destroyed by Al-qaeda, which was lead by Osama bin Laden and supported by the Taliban government in Afghanistan; Sept. 2001.
What did Osama bin Laden & the Taliban government in Afghanistan hope to gain by doing this?
Good question. Figuring that out would probably be akin to figuring out the workings of kamma, one of the four imponderables.

Osama bin Laden's stated reason for doing this was to get the USA to remove it's military presence from KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia). I can understand why anyone would not want a foreign military presence in thier country, but his claim that the presence of an infidel foreign army was soiling the purity of the keeper of the two great shrines [of Islam] is, in my view, pure propaganda in order to recruit minion soldiers for his mercenary army.

Some facts:
-OBL (Osama bin Laden) put together a guerilla army mainly of bedoin mercenaries that defeated the Soviet military in Afganistan. Quite a feat, defeating the Soviet army, the German Nazi's failed on the Russion front, the American army failed in Korea, along with pretty much any other army that tried.
-Once the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the USA immediately cut off ALL support to OBL, financial and militarily.
-OBL opposed American involvement in mid-East conflicts.

To my knowledge, the majority of mideast people and governments where grateful to the American military for ousting Sadam from Kuwait. But, they did not like the treachorous bombing of everyone in Iraq, nor have any appreciation for the Americans sticking around with their bases or the continued sanctions and military action (no-fly zones) in Iraq once the original stated goal was acheived.

My opinion:
OBL must have been swelling with pride and ego after defeating the Soviets. It's pretty well accepted that the Americans cutting of all aid and asking him to fade into obscurity pissed him off. Many career military men in positions of power when coming off an astounding victory will seek out the next good fight. There were a number of reasons the American military action in Iraq during the 1991 gulf war could be taken as a complete disregard for Arab life. Together with the occupying forces, this created a fantastic recrutment oppurtunity. Another fact: OBL was able to gain a lot of financial and volunteer soldier support within KSA via an easy propoganda campaign based on America's disregard for 'muslim' life and defiling sacred land (religious propoganda works well, the USA uses it all the time) this propoganda campaign took off with a life of its own in the KSA.

He just wanted to kick some American Ass. Another militarialistic sociopath.
Taking out the world trade center showed he could do something; it was considered quite a victory for a small time guerilla army to achieve such a successful military attack on the US on our own soil. It served as a means for continued support, power, and feeding his grandious ego.

A fool to not consider the future ramificaions and the defeat in Afghanistan that would follow.

As for the Taliban, without Al-qaeda they did not have the muscle to support their oppressive government on the Afghan people. So they gave OBL the refuge and training grounds he requested in exchange for financial and military aid from Al-qaeda.

As pointed out in the OP; Bush Jr. and those who supported the invasion of Iraq were even bigger fools than OBL; Not only did the act of invading Iraq become a major distraction from achieving stability in Afghanistan; by creating a huge power vacuum in Iraq, it lead to the horrific situations across the mid-east and northern Africa we have today; along with the suffering and instability citizen people like ourselves have been subjected to for the past 15 years. It's possible some of the military atrocities in other parts of Africa over the past 15 years have also spawned from this (Clearly what occured in Timbuktu a few years ago was).
:anjali:
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945

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DooDoot
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 am

JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Osama bin Laden's stated reason for doing this was to get the USA to remove it's military presence from KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia).
Sounds implausible to me.
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Some facts:
-OBL (Osama bin Laden) put together a guerilla army mainly of bedoin mercenaries that defeated the Soviet military in Afganistan. Quite a feat, defeating the Soviet army, the German Nazi's failed on the Russion front, the American army failed in Korea, along with pretty much any other army that tried.
Non-fact. Mere fantasy. Unlike Osama bin Laden, the German Nazis did not have US supplied Stinger Missiles.


JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Once the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the USA immediately cut off ALL support to OBL, financial and militarily.
Including this support?
During the Bosnian War in the early 1990s, al-Qaeda is considered to have been involved with organising volunteers for the Bosnian mujahideen. Al-Qaeda leaders including Osama Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are thought to have visited camps in Bosnia during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_ ... _in_Europe
This support?
The Kunduz airlift refers to the evacuation of thousands of top commanders and members of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, their Pakistani advisers including Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agents and army personnel, and other Jihadi volunteers and sympathizers, from the city of Kunduz, Afghanistan, in November 2001[2] just before its capture by U.S. and United Front of Afghanistan (Northern Alliance) forces during the War in Afghanistan. As described in several reports, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda combatants were safely evacuated from Kunduz and airlifted by Pakistan Air Force cargo aircraft to Pakistan Air Force bases in Chitral and Gilgit in Pakistan-administered Kashmir's Northern Areas.

In one of Hillary Clintons emails, discussing the senate report on the Tora Bora escape of Bin Laden, Sidney Blumenthal talks about the Kunduz airlift as being ordered by Cheney/Rumsfeld.

Gary Berntsen, the head of the CIA armed operation in eastern Afghanistan, is a major source for the report. I am in contact with him and have heard his entire story at length, key parts of which are not in his book, "Jawbreaker," or in the Senate report. In particular, the story of the Kunduz airlift of the bulk of key AQ and Taliban leaders, at the request of Musharaff and per order Cheney/Rumsfeld, is absent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_airlift
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
To my knowledge, the majority of mideast people and governments where grateful to the American military for ousting Sadam from Kuwait.
What knowledge? Which governments? US-Allies? Regardless, was the deaths of millions of people worth it? Was it moral? Since when is it moral to invade nations & kill people because you personally don't like the ruler?
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
But, they did not like the treachorous bombing of everyone in Iraq, nor have any appreciation for the Americans sticking around with their bases or the continued sanctions and military action (no-fly zones) in Iraq once the original stated goal was acheived.
Oh, so what a few people might like or dislike forms the basis of what is moral; this few people called "they"?
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
My opinion:
Fantasy rather than fact?
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
OBL must have been swelling with pride and ego after defeating the Soviets.
It began with Buddha's Imponderables but now has turned into Freudian Psychoanalysis.
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
It's pretty well accepted that the Americans cutting of all aid and asking him to fade into obscurity pissed him off.
Oh... its pretty well accepted...
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Many career military men in positions of power when coming off an astounding victory will seek out the next good fight.
Oh.... many career men...
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
There were a number of reasons the American military action in Iraq during the 1991 gulf war could be taken as a complete disregard for Arab life. Together with the occupying forces, this created a fantastic recrutment oppurtunity. Another fact: OBL was able to gain a lot of financial and volunteer soldier support within KSA via an easy propoganda campaign based on America's disregard for 'muslim' life and defiling sacred land (religious propoganda works well, the USA uses it all the time) this propoganda campaign took off with a life of its own in the KSA.
I doubt it. OBL was a dead man in Iraq, Iran, etc.
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
He just wanted to kick some American Ass. Another militarialistic sociopath.
Oh...
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Taking out the world trade center showed he could do something; it was considered quite a victory for a small time guerilla army to achieve such a successful military attack on the US on our own soil. It served as a means for continued support, power, and feeding his grandious ego.
That's really deep. 3000 dead American & it was just OBL's ego trip.
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
A fool to not consider the future ramificaions and the defeat in Afghanistan that would follow.
Sure...whatever
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
As for the Taliban, without Al-qaeda they did not have the muscle to support their oppressive government on the Afghan people. So they gave OBL the refuge and training grounds he requested in exchange for financial and military aid from Al-qaeda.
I read no Al Qaeda was found in Afghanistan by US & UK troops.
JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
As pointed out in the OP; Bush Jr. and those who supported the invasion of Iraq were even bigger fools than OBL; Not only did the act of invading Iraq become a major distraction from achieving stability in Afghanistan; by creating a huge power vacuum in Iraq, it lead to the horrific situations across the mid-east and northern Africa we have today; along with the suffering and instability citizen people like ourselves have been subjected to for the past 15 years. It's possible some of the military atrocities in other parts of Africa over the past 15 years have also spawned from this (Clearly what occured in Timbuktu a few years ago was).
To me, what happened after 9/11 followed a clear US plan to destroy non-aligned nations & enemies of Israel; that also made profits for the US military industry. Sorry, I don't buy any of the script writing you wrote. The US govt has demonstrated no intention to free the world of Salafi Terrorism. Since the War On Terror appears to be a lie; it can only be logically deduced those who started it were liars.

:|








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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by Circle5 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 am
To me, what happened after 9/11 followed a clear US plan to destroy non-aligned nations & enemies of Israel; that also made profits for the US military industry. Sorry, I don't buy any of the script writing you wrote. The US govt has demonstrated no intention to free the world of Salafi Terrorism. Since the War On Terror appears to be a lie; it can only be logically deduced those who started it were liars.
Have you checked Hillary e-mails regarding the middle east ? They are avaliable online for free and there are about 100 of them. Maybe that will make you stop with the conspiracy theories, understand how realpolitik works and understand that USA does not really care too much about Israel. It's a 6 million people country that depends entirely on USA, not the other way around. If you search for "syria" within Hillary e-mails, almost nothing is dealing with that problem. Most e-mail are about Israeli problem with Iran and how USA and Turkey did all they could to stop Israel doing some stupidity and in the end managed to do so.

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/?q ... archresult

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DooDoot
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:17 am

JeffR wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:51 pm
Osama bin Laden...
So the highly improbable event occurred that four planes were successfully hijacked; three of those planes penetrated NYC and DC airspace without being intercepted (despite flying around for over 1 hour); including the third plane crashing into the Pentagon one hour after WTC1; causing WTC1, WTC2, WTC6 and WCT7 to collapse into their footprints. The US Security was oblivious to this. Yet on 9/11, the man who would become governor of Iraq said it was Bin Laden. And the Israeli ex-PM said it was Bin Laden.




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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:22 am

Circle5 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:12 am
Maybe that will make you stop with the conspiracy theories, understand how realpolitik works...
Returned with the cold war mentality, again? Just accept the murder of people in the USA & overseas with the rationale of "realpolitik". I suppose an ex-Commie that has no experience with democracy, it would be like this. Just as Stalin indoctrinated Romanians; the US-media now indoctrinates Romanians. :roll: What I mostly post about is how our mentality can support war & killing, which if negligent, could lead to rebirth in hell. :shock:
Warned by the deva messengers,
those youths who are heedless
grieve for a long, long time —
people entering a lower state.

MN 130
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Circle5
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Re: "Shock and Awe". Do you remember that?

Post by Circle5 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:22 am
Circle5 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:12 am
Maybe that will make you stop with the conspiracy theories, understand how realpolitik works...
Returned with the cold war mentality, again? Just accept the murder of people in the USA & overseas with the rationale of "realpolitik". I suppose as an ex-Commie that has no experience with democracy, it would be like this. Just as Stalin indoctrinated Romanians; the US-media now indoctrinates Romanians. :roll:
But you are absolutally in love with Russia or Iran use of realpolitik. Ukraine, Rep. Moldova, Georgia, Grozni, etc. are your favorite wars. You can rationalize those wars with not the slightest "citta of hearth" (lol) problems. So how comes you supposedly don't understand realpolitik in general, when you just love realpolitik when it comes to those wars ?

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