How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

If you wish to raise new topics on News, Current Events & Politics, please do so at Dhamma Wheel Engaged.
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:47 pm

I spoke with a friend (girl) that works as a multinational company and has been sent for 2 months to another center in Chech Repblic. She was actually totally into american left wing propaganda before this. I never took my time to speak about this with her cause such people are super rare in my country and this demographic is voting for the anti-corruption forces with both hands so I am actually encouraging this phenomenon when in it comes to RO.

I spoke with her today, first time after she moved there. She said they were at a bar after work, their big boss was there and they started speaking about their USA headquaters. The big boss started complaining about USA being totally insane. He said that PC stuff is so annoying he is thinking about closing their headquaters there. He said no employer of theirs that was sent to USA for a while resisted more than 7 months. 7 months was the record. There were some employees there that were to USA and all confirmed how hard it is to work there.

I asked her what exactly was the problem, especially since this guy was the big boss and he can't get fired. The problem was that you can get sued or have bad things happen to you for reasons you can't even understand and you are always living in fear. Another problem was that people would really really hate you and do all they can to make you feel terrible if you break the PC rules. And this is why nobody resisted there more than 7 months. Also he said this is true only for USA and not for their headquaters in any other western european country. She said he complained about the feminism part of it, about anything being considered sexual harassment or workplace discrimination and not so much about the racial part of it.

This is all she could tell me, they did not speak in more details but she'll tell me if they get to speak more. So I am asking you: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ? I always laughed about this stuff and supposed people there laugh about it too and are not really that disturbed about it other than being anoyed by the stupidity of it. I expected it's similar to commnism where people would follow the PC but laugh about it in the back of their minds and just do it cause it was required. But appearently in USA regular people actually believe in this stuff and are super aggresive in enforcing this ideology, not to mention using it for their own gains. Plus it's hugely affecting normal behavior between man and woman. And this is certainly much worse, especially for regular employees if even the big boss of that friend of mine couldn't take it.

So what is your experience with this problem ? Have you ever worked in USA and also in another country, so that you can compare how life is when moving from a normal country to USA ? And is this things slowing down or is it at strong as ever ?

User avatar
Wizard in the Forest
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: House in Forest of Illusions

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:52 pm

What do you mean by ultra PCness? I can only contribute correctly if I know what you mean.

If you mean that Americans demand a respectful workplace, then yes, I agree. It's a requirement on most people's part and lawsuits happen when a violation of that respect exists. This means no attempts to troll for sex or to mistreat a coworker because that's disrespectful. A person is there to ensure they can pay bills, have healthcare, etc. People often take this notion for granted. Work is not primarily a place to socialize, it's primarily to secure a living.

There's an idiomatic expression of, "Keep it professional" and this is what it means.

They're there to work, not find a partner, nor to make friends.

If it happens incidentally, then it happens, but don't expect it.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:04 pm

There is a saying that "when 3 people tell you that you're drunk, go to sleep". If USA ultraPCness would be something natural, it would also happen in the 47 european countries that exist, or in other places of the world too. But this is simply a product of ideology. As I said in the other topic, USA people are highly polarized and extremist in their political views. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31466#p463610
The fact that you can post in this topic such a message only confirms that. Any non-extreme person leaning left wing would say something like "sure, we do have a problem with this going to the extreme in recent years, but in general it's probably a good thing".

Consider the extreme right wing people you complained about in the other topic. The way you look at them, the same way others look at you.

User avatar
Wizard in the Forest
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: House in Forest of Illusions

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:11 pm

There's nothing 'ideological' about respecting women in the workplace. Either you are respectful, or you aren't. If you aren't respectful of women in the workplace you will rightfully be sued. This means keeping the workplace professional, because just because five guys agree to get drunk doesn't mean the sober person must drink to appease the drunks. In fact, it's a matter of principle to oppose the drunks and even if it is one person agreeing to be moral, the morality benefits all people involved. That's just how it works in the US. If you don't like it, you will still get sued for violating these laws and will be forced to pay for it.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12314
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by DNS » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:50 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:04 pm
If USA ultraPCness would be something natural, it would also happen in the 47 european countries that exist, or in other places of the world too.
It does. Affirmative action appears to be in use throughout much of the developed world. For example:
Article 3 of the German Basic Law provides for equal rights of all people regardless of sex, race or social background. There are programs stating that if men and women have equal qualifications, women have to be preferred for a job; moreover, the disabled should be preferred to non-disabled people. This is typical for all positions in state and university service as of 2007, typically using the phrase "We try to increase diversity in this line of work". In recent years, there has been a long public debate about whether to issue programs that would grant women a privileged access to jobs in order to fight discrimination. Germany's Left Party brought up the discussion about affirmative action in Germany's school system. According to Stefan Zillich, quotas should be "a possibility" to help working class children who did not do well in school gain access to a Gymnasium (University-preparatory school).[59] Headmasters of Gymnasien have objected, saying that this type of policy would "be a disservice" to poor children.[60]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmati ... on#Germany
In Romania too:
Romani people are allocated quotas for access to public schools and state universities.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5177
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:48 pm

We are in murky waters here, and disagreements are likely simply because terms mean different things to different people. The term "PC" originally, in my country, had a positive slant to it, all about respect for others, but it rapidly became negative in connotation. It is latterly used as a jokey shorthand for humourless SJW zealots attempting to stifle free speech and engage in localised social engineering in the workplace.

Certainly, the laws relating to the treatment of minorities has had a massive impact in the workplace, especially in large corporations and government agencies. I personally welcome the requirement that we treat one another with respect at work, and that management recognises the harm that can be done by the careless expression of prejudice. On the other hand, I have seen some vile applications of these laws (or, more correctly, of the local rules designed to keep the organisation legally on-side.) For example, false allegations of racism and sexism used in order to try to gain compensation; trumped-up charges designed to get rid of difficult employees or to shed staff without the legal requirement of paying them statutory redundancy pay; and office score-settling. All of this, of course, is entirely contrary to the spirit of the laws, and does absolutely nothing to benefit the target groups, but just shows that anyone with enough malice can weaponise almost anything.

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:17 pm

I googled "pc at workplace" and found this article from 2008. I suppose things have only gotten worse since then:

Is political correctness screwing up the workplace?
Are you afraid to say or do anything for fear of offending someone and losing your job or getting sued? Are we doomed to dumbing down our entire society to the least common denominator lest we offend a few thin-skinned whiners? Has workplace equality turn

In 1964 congress passed the Civil Rights Act. Three years later came the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA), followed by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. This litany of legislation proves that politicians can actually get things done when they put their minds to it, all recent evidence to the contrary.

As an engineering manager for Texas Instruments in the mid-80s, I was careful about discrimination. Then I got a memo explaining that sexual harassment would not be tolerated. I was terrified until I realized the memo went out to all employees. Whew, that was a relief. I wish the memo proves that executives care about their employees, but I think it was more about avoiding litigation. And my relief was all about keeping my job.

Regardless of how or why any of this stuff happens, it's exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes our nation. We've made great strides toward putting an end to job discrimination and sexual harassment. But lately, something seems to have gone terribly wrong.
For the last ten years or so, I think we've lost our way. And I mean really lost, like without GPS navigation or Google Maps lost. Like ten guys and nobody wants to ask for directions lost. Like Britney Spears lost. Like the fourth season of Lostwith no writers lost.


These days, treating fellow employees like anything but mindless drones with the anatomy of Ken and Barbie Dolls can be considered a hostile work environment. Telling someone he or she looks nice in an outfit or telling an anecdote or joke that someone may find offensive can get you sued or fired.

Even talking to someone who may have ratted you out to human resources - the constitutional right to face your accuser - is considered retaliatory behavior. That's taboo too.

Yes, I know this stuff has its roots in the right place, just like all the legislation. I know it sounded like a good idea at the time. And I certainly don't mean to imply that we should be telling grossly offensive jokes and propositioning employees. I just think the pendulum has swung too far and it's still swinging.

For one thing, this stuff is very subjective. If 20 people think something's cool but one person finds it offensive, what do you do? Fire the offender for inadvertently brushing up against someone's thin skin? And who gets to make that determination? The corporate executives afraid of being sued, of course.

And why is it unacceptable to offend one or two people, but acceptable to dictate to hundreds or thousands how they should behave for 40 or 50 hours a week? Sure, it's uncomfortable for the one or two, but it's also stressful for everyone else to behave unnaturally and worry about everything they say and how they say it.

It's a slippery slope, and it gets more and more slippery all the time. What started as creating equality and ending harassment in the workplace has turned into political correctness gone wild.

The result is that everyone's afraid to say or do anything for fear of offending someone and losing his or her job. Where does it all end? Are we doomed to dumbing down our entire society to the least common denominator lest we offend a few thin-skinned whiners?

You're all out there in the workplace every day. Is it getting too PC out there, is it business as usual, or is this more of a good thing, like workplace equality? Am I in the minority or preaching to the choir?
https://www.cnet.com/news/is-political- ... workplace/

I feel that people who lived all their lives in PC culture never got know how life is without it. Life is just fine without this fear culture. Psichologically people are actually better. This is why non USA people find it strange and stupid to have this fear culture in place. Without being convinced through ideology that this is good, it's hard to find any pragmatical reasons for this kind of workplace being bettern than a european one.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21125
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:43 pm

Greetings Circle5,

I certainly wouldn't be championing Europe (as a whole) as a fearless bastion of non-PC-ness.

The difference between the US and Western Europe is that in the US there are louder voices speaking out against it, which creates a more visible conflict between PC and non-PC people.

Europe on the other hand appears to be subdued into PC submission by the European Union.... both from directives from the EU and aligned national governments, but also psychologically due to legacy 20th century fears that if the EU collapses, European countries will go to war with one another once more. I don't believe they would, but this fear compels people to be far more submissive to the totalitarian European project than they otherwise would be.

It's in times like these that my respect for the First Amendment and those who passionately defend it grows.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:03 pm

Well, it's not me but that boss of a multinational company that said they only have a problem with the USA headquaters and not with their places in other european countries. Maybe it has to do with USA having specific laws that make a company vulnerable to getting sued for anything.

But if you take into consideration that UK and USA people consider germans (one of the most PC in europe) to be super rude, I think it's much more plausible that USA is level of PCness above europe. Also, note that latin countries from europe have almost nothing to do with this PCness and it's totally against their culture, to say nothing about former soviet block countries. PCness is something that developed out of puritanism, that's why it's only present in protestant countries.

The fact that EU enforced some refugee quotas is one thing. What this topic was more about is the general culture of PCness and real life among people.

dharmacorps
Posts: 846
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:01 am

I live in the Bay Area so I am surrounded by this kind of vibe.

All I can say is I am a centrist, I suppose. I have some ideas that are liberal, some ideas that are conservative. I would much rather share my liberal ideas with my conservative friends than my conservative ideas with my liberal friends.

If you just read that and you understand why I said that, then you can probably understand why the current brand of liberalism and its attached PC/SJW mentality is troubling. The script has now flipped where liberals have become the intolerant, rigid, judgemental, holier than thou people that conservatives supposedly were/are-- with plenty of toxic politics all over the map to go around of course...

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:10 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:01 am
I live in the Bay Area so I am surrounded by this kind of vibe.

All I can say is I am a centrist, I suppose. I have some ideas that are liberal, some ideas that are conservative. I would much rather share my liberal ideas with my conservative friends than my conservative ideas with my liberal friends.

If you just read that and you understand why I said that, then you can probably understand why the current brand of liberalism and its attached PC/SJW mentality is troubling. The script has now flipped where liberals have become the intolerant, rigid, judgemental, holier than thou people that conservatives supposedly were/are-- with plenty of toxic politics all over the map to go around of course...
Is PC losing power or is it still becoming more and more extreme ? There has been opposition to it appearing in recent years but I don't know if that has changed things for the better or simply made PC people get even more extreme.

This is something I could not find an answers by googling. Is the PC trend slowing down or is it still growing ?

dharmacorps
Posts: 846
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:39 am

I'm not really sure. I have found in my location it is getting worse over the last 10 years, but my guess is there are some geographic variations. I lived in the Midwest before that, and things were much more balanced there. I never felt such social pressures to have certain political views.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21125
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:40 am

Greetings Circle5,

As you note, the resistance to it is growing. I am reminded here of this article by Milo Yiannopoulos, published at the end of 2015...

Coming 2016: All-Out War On So-Called ‘Social Justice’

The whole article is worth reading, as a little "time capsule" of where things were at, at the time.

However, moving forward, he finishes with this paragraph...
If you take their crybully pronouncements at face value, social justice warriors believe, with all the fervor of a paranoiac, that they are helpless, fragile things, buffeted by sinister structural forces they are powerless to resist. They believe that their opponents possess power that, if used ruthlessly enough, could eradicate them. What do you say we prove them right?
Less than twelve months later, Donald Trump became president.

Within another twelve months, the term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (TDS) has entered the common venacular.

So in response to your question...
Is the PC trend slowing down or is it still growing ?
I think it has slowed, peaked (probably around the time of Milo's article), and is gradually on the decline. However, some have become so entrenched in that particular world-view that they're have a rough time of things adjusting to a world that doesn't always pander to their PC inclinations. It's my prediction that the PC decline will actually accelerate throughout 2018 as the articles of faith which sustained the PC thought-world crumble at a greater rate. That said, it will not go quiety, nor will the media, politicians, the deep state, the private "charitable foundations", or technology organizations which enable them - in fact, many will become increasingly desperate as they struggle to survive, nevermind push their agendas.

Through this time we should be mindful to not intentionally "trigger" these people, because due to tanha, they are mired in deep suffering. Let us therefore be compassionate and tolerant in a way that they have not been to those with whom they disagree.

Image

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:07 am

It's hard for me to judge without living there. There is a huge argument for this: it's becoming uncool. The moment something is not cool anymore, it goes down. Something like this depends entirely on how cool it is.

But how about the long term effects of Trump being in power ? Usually the side in power loses and the opposition grows. But in USA things may be working differently. Obama being in power has contributed to a rise in this trend, so the opposite may happen now. Though I really do not understand this and don't understand how things work in countries where politics are a form of culture battle. Is there truth to this idea that in USA, when one side is in power, society mood swings in that direction and not in the opposite one ? Has this historically been true ? Cause Obama period taken alone proves little about this idea.

chownah
Posts: 7865
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: How is it to actually live in ultra-PCness ?

Post by chownah » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:14 am

IN some political circles you must be anti-pc to be pc.....that is one reason why politics is a dumb game for mostly dumb people.
chownah

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests