Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:53 pm

Last edited by Dhammarakkhito on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:39 pm

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:48 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:58 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:50 am
As I see it his main contribution to the world was the spreading of materialist-scientism which is founded on wrong view.
Physics is wrong view? Would you care to elaborate.

Also, why call his work scientism? He was a "real" scientist and was the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge .. an academic post once held by Newton.
Scientism is a term generally used to describe the facile application of science in unwarranted situations not amenable to application of the scientific method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
Hawking pursued facile application of science? Is that your opinion?


:namaste:

P.S - If Dylan replies I request mods to split it to a new thread from this post onwards
Materialism is wrong view. Annihilationism is wrong view. Stephen Hawking held & promoted both these views.

He was a real scientist but he also posed as a philosopher. He made all sorts of unfounded conclusions (which he would often retract or change his mind on) that go far beyond the mathematical observations he's actually qualified to make - for example he says that this is the only universe, there was nothing before the big bang, there was no time before the big bang. These are assumptions & views that are philosophical in nature, not scientific, & yet the masses of people who are incapable of understanding the distinction between science & the philosophical views of scientists will take it as objective truth because he said it - it's a misuse of authority.

He said all sorts of wacky, very dramatic things like that Artificial Intelligence will kill us all or that we need to go into space within the next 200 years to avoid extinction.

& he'd go into all sorts of speculation on black holes.

& it's important to understand he didn't know these things, they are speculative views, hence him changing his mind so often - but he used his status as a scientist to present them as fact.

Yes physics is wrong when it is assumed that the material world is actually real independent of the mind & is the source of the mind. These are wrong views.
Yeah, he wasn't perfect. Why celebrate an unperfect being?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

Justsit
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by Justsit » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:33 pm

What is the point of "critiquing" a dead person's life by applying criteria that have no relevance to that person? Hawking did not claim to be a Buddhist.

Is there some requirement that all people are held to some standard of judgment by the Buddha, like the Christian God?
Or is it our job as "Buddhists" to do so?

Seriously, Mr. Hawking very obviously suffered greatly throughout his adult life, and now the man is dead. Does it make someone here feel better to disparage his memory, whether he was famous or not?

Frankly, the "Holier than thou" attitude that has appeared recently in these fora is disturbing. AFAIK, none of us here are enlightened.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:47 pm

Justsit wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:33 pm
What is the point of "critiquing" a dead person's life by applying criteria that have no relevance to that person? Hawking did not claim to be a Buddhist.

Is there some requirement that all people are held to some standard of judgment by the Buddha, like the Christian God?
Or is it our job as "Buddhists" to do so?

Seriously, Mr. Hawking very obviously suffered greatly throughout his adult life, and now the man is dead. Does it make someone here feel better to disparage his memory, whether he was famous or not?

Frankly, the "Holier than thou" attitude that has appeared recently in these fora is disturbing. AFAIK, none of us here are enlightened.
:goodpost:

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dylanj
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:48 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:14 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:53 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:26 am

Could you give me some examples?
I can recall only one.
That is if I am not wrong that he said we can go back to the past.
If I can recall he said that a broken glass will be automatically fixed when you go back to the past.
Latter he changed his mind on this view.
I believe he has both said that AI are nothing to worry about & that they will kill us all, with the former view replaced by the latter.

& that a black hole destroys everything but then later that it does not.
That is really awful. He really should have constructed a dogma set in stone and clung to it faithfuly to his death. How dare he learn something new in life and change his mind. He would have benefitted by coming here and listening to you....then he would know the value of clinging to dogma.
chownah
No, my point is that he should realize he's subject to being wrong & not be declaring things as scientific truths to the whole world
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:49 pm

The "critiquing" started on another thread & was simply in response to supposed-Buddhists calling a materialist-annihilationist with no obvious practice of virtue, let alone wisdom or meditation for that matter, a "great mind".

The point is relative to Dhamma, this is simply not appropriate for Buddhists, we should not be extolling people for such shallow & petty things as intellect irrespective of its wholesome application.
Last edited by dylanj on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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SDC
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:50 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:53 pm
i'm still not seeing what positive contributions were made to the world by this man. he may have put forth a lot of mental effort but what are the fruits?
I believe there was criteria in the suttas for praiseworthy worldly accomplishment that is clearly distinguished from that of the higher goal. Did the Buddha not speak highly of wheel turning monarchs and successful lay people?

Maybe I'm missing your point.

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retrofuturist
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:52 pm

Greetings SDC,
SDC wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:50 pm
Maybe I'm missing your point.
I understood it in a more worldly sense... i.e. to what end have any of his scientific theories etc. manifested in tangible benefits to mankind?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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dylanj
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:53 pm

SDC wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:50 pm
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:53 pm
i'm still not seeing what positive contributions were made to the world by this man. he may have put forth a lot of mental effort but what are the fruits?
I believe there was criteria in the suttas for praiseworthy worldly accomplishment that is clearly distinguished from that of the higher goal. Did the Buddha not speak highly of wheel turning monarchs and successful lay people?

Maybe I'm missing your point.
Even those people, heck, even puthujjana who are virtuous, are praiseworthy insofar as they bring people genuine benefit & happiness.

I will praise a doctor if I see that they do their work lovingly, regardless of their religion.

I will not praise a scientist for spreading wrong view materialist-annihilationist science-fiction mumbo jumbo, which is, quite frankly, an evil deed that leads to downfall.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:57 pm

ryanM wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:35 am
Didn't the Buddha mention that people who believed in annihilation were more along the path than those that believe in an eternal self because they didn't see a persistent "self" that carried through lives/time?
He didn't say they were more along the path, he said they take their annihilationist view out of distaste for the egotistic eternalist view but ironically themselves fall back on a self-view by asserting annihilation.

Holding the view "there is the next world" is right view, to this extent an eternalist has right view. By denying this an annihilationist has wrong view & there is no right view involved in there denial of it because they still hold self-view, so it's worse overall.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:01 pm

dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:49 pm
The "critiquing" started on another thread & was simply in response to supposed-Buddhists calling a materialist-annihilationist with no obvious practice of virtue, let alone wisdom or meditation for that matter, a "great mind".
In the English language, "great" does not always mean "in accordance with the Dhamma". Great Britain, the Great Lakes, the Great Bear, the Great War, Frederick the Great.
The point is relative to Dhamma, this is simply not appropriate for Buddhists
Buddhists! Be in no doubt that your inappropriate behaviour has been noted!

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SDC
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:01 pm

dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:53 pm
I will not praise a scientist for spreading wrong view materialist-annihilationist science-fiction mumbo jumbo, which is, quite frankly, an evil deed that leads to downfall.
Evil compared to what?

Did the Buddha say to make the world into a Dhamma haven? No he said, "there are those with little dust in their eyes" - so he understood that most people would never understand the Dhamma. Stephen Hawking was certainly worldly, but I don't think he's falls to the evil side of such ignorant worldlings. Just doesn't add up for me.

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bodom
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by bodom » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:05 pm

How unfortunate that someone would criticize another for not holding a Buddhist belief system but yet does not follow them himself.
252. Easily seen is the fault of others, but one's own fault is difficult to see. Like chaff one winnows another's faults, but hides one's own, even as a crafty fowler hides behind sham branches.

253. He who seeks another's faults, who is ever censorious — his cankers grow. He is far from destruction of the cankers.
:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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dylanj
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Re: RIP Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:06 pm

SDC wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:01 pm
dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:53 pm
I will not praise a scientist for spreading wrong view materialist-annihilationist science-fiction mumbo jumbo, which is, quite frankly, an evil deed that leads to downfall.
Evil compared to what?

Did the Buddha say to make the world into a Dhamma haven? No he said, "there are those with little dust in their eyes" - so he understood that most people would never understand the Dhamma. Stephen Hawking was certainly worldly, but I don't think he's falls to the evil side of such ignorant worldlings. Just doesn't add up for me.
I didn't say he was evil I said teaching wrong view is evil.

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:10 pm

“Mendicants, I will teach you who’s bad and who’s worse, who’s good and who’s better.

And who’s bad? It’s someone who has wrong view, wrong thought, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong immersion, wrong knowledge, and wrong freedom. This is called bad.

And who’s worse? It’s someone who has wrong view, wrong thought, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong immersion, wrong knowledge, and wrong freedom. And they encourage others in these same qualities. This is called worse.
AN 4.208
"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.
AN 10.103
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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