Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:23 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 am
dylanj wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:00 pm
i think there's room for quantum physics to be compared to buddhism (pm for book on this) but it's too easy to draw flawed/false conclusions with stuff like black holes, & i've thought about the concept a whole lot so i understand the urge
Yes, most of what I've seen attempting to connect physics and Dhamma (or Eastern thought in general) was very superficial, since in most cases the author know little about dhamma, or little about physics, or little about either.

I personally recommend Alan Wallace's Choosing Reality http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/buddhis ... ality.aspx
Wallace actually has a degree in physics (though not an advanced degree), as well as his Tibetan Buddhism credentials.

I like Wallace's approach, which is to draw parallels between approaches, rather than details. Wheras, trying to compare, for example, "Dark Energy" with some Dhamma idea seems pointless to me. Cutting-edge physics theories are ephemeral, and are likely to turn out to be erronious - that's the nature of cutting edge science! I recall reading, The Tao of Physics back in the late 70s. The book made a big deal out of a particular particle-physics theory, which, by the time I read the book, had fallen out of favour. Capra discusses this on his web site: http://www.fritjofcapra.net/the-unification-of-physics/ though he puts a more positive spin on it:
During the 1980s and 1990s, the bootstrap theory was eclipsed by the success of the standard model, which is very different, as it postulates the existence of fundamental fields and their corresponding particles. And today, bootstrap physics has virtually disappeared from the scene. However, if a theory of quantum gravity continues to remain elusive, and if the a priori assumption of the structure of space-time is broadly recognized as the essential flaw of string theory, the bootstrap idea may well will be revived someday, in some mathematical formulation or other.
:heart:
Mike
Yes, it's makes no sense mixing physics and Buddhism. I tried it without success, it's like insanity. The heritage of professor Hawking remaining with us.

He studied black holes. These are very interesting objects, there is no time in a black hole, as gravity & time is interconnected. Extraordinary gravity stops time. Information goes into black hole and never get out again, as Hawking said. I can't imagine flying into a black hole and come back without any harm. :) For example, time slows down in the center of earth, because gravity slows down time.

Time is also connected with speed. At lightning speed, time is almost stopped. So light must have another time clock, it reach us in 8 mins from the sun. It's hard to comprehend.

:bow:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 am

Susskind defeated the theory of Hawking, he said information is not lost in black holes. Hawking admitted, that he was wrong. However I believe Hawking was right, I fly into a black hole,  spaghettified by gravity, all my atoms torn apart into particles, still no information is lost. That makes no sense. These holes do evaporate in some trillion years, but I think an astronaut will never come back from a black hole.

Imagine the center of a black hole! Time is stopped, temperature is some billion degrees, matter is compressed, millions of captured stars flying there, that's what I call of point of no return.

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

chownah
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:18 am

onceruturner,
I think you are using the wrong concept of "information". In physics they are not using it to mean something that is held in the mind....in physics it means more like IF you knew everything about a particle and its environment then that information is enough to determing then entire history of that particle for example where it was and what its environment was at any previous time.......it is sort of like determinism only going back in time instead of forwards in time...

I am not a physicist so some or all of what I have said may be wrong.
chownah

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No_Mind
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by No_Mind » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:44 am

A general comment since I read the word quantum and Buddhism together in a sentence written by dylanj.

My post is about quantum woo being BS.
Definition of quantum woo

Quantum woo is the justification of irrational beliefs by an obfuscatory reference to quantum physics. Buzzwords like "energy field", "probability wave", or "wave-particle duality" are used to magically turn thoughts into something tangible in order to directly affect the universe. This results in such foolishness as the Law of Attraction or quantum healing. Some have turned quantum woo into a career, such as Deepak Chopra, who often presents ill-defined concepts of quantum physics as proof for God and other magical thinking.

When an idea seems too crazy to believe, the proponent often makes an appeal to quantum physics as the explanation. This is a New Age version of God of the gaps.

Quantum woo is an attempt to piggy-back on the success and legitimacy of science by claiming quack ideas are rooted in accepted concepts in physics, combined with utter misunderstanding of these concepts and a sense of wonder at the amazing magic these misunderstandings would imply if true. A quick way to tell if a claim about quantum physics has scientific validity is to ask for the mathematics. If there isn't any, it's rubbish. Brian Cox proposed one should challenge Deepak Chopra to first solve the Schrödinger equation for a spherically symmetrical potential, then talk about quantum healing.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Trying to tangle quantum physics with religion is very old concept.

The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism by Fritjof Capra was the first attempt in 1975.

The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukav was second attempt in 1979.

In 1990s it was used by Deepak Chopra again in several of his books. It caused me to spend months trying to understand "spooky action at a distance"

How .. is it explained .. it basically says that the observer affects the observation (I am condensing it mightily .. summarising 2000 pages by different authors to less than 80 words)

I place one of a pair of gloves in a box in room A and another one in another box in room B.

You enter room A. The box does not contain the right hand glove or the left hand glove. It contains both. You open it and see that it is the right hand glove and at that moment the glove in room B changes to left hand part of the pair (the so called "spooky action at a distance")

As long as it is not observed the glove is both left and right handed .. there is a probability not a certainty.

And .. we are suggested to think that this can be used to manipulate the universe .. we can run into the cute girl who moved in next door whenever we wish .. just by wishing it .. and that there are endless possibilities .. and so on. Words like non-locality and wave-particle duality are thrown about like confetti.

I spent three years of my life believing this steaming pile of BS.

The problem is this happens at only quantum level. We can know the position or speed of a particle but not both. Superposition (the basis of this argument) does not happen at the level of atoms and molecules (Classical or Newtonian physics) from where the example of of glove is given. We cannot manipulate the universe with our thoughts.

I would welcome any one who knows quantum physics to correct my example. I have often wondered did I understand what those guys were trying to sell correctly?

Do not read about it .. I repeat it is seductive, steaming pile of BS (not quantum mechanics or mysticism but quantum mysticism).

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:50 am

bodom wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:05 pm
How unfortunate that someone would criticize another for not holding a Buddhist belief system but yet does not follow them himself.
252. Easily seen is the fault of others, but one's own fault is difficult to see. Like chaff one winnows another's faults, but hides one's own, even as a crafty fowler hides behind sham branches.

253. He who seeks another's faults, who is ever censorious — his cankers grow. He is far from destruction of the cankers.
:namaste:
I think Bodom always tell the truth, pls listen to him. He is the no 1 of knowledge.

:namaste:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:07 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:44 am
...

I would welcome any one who knows quantum physics to correct my example. I have often wondered did I understand what those guys were trying to sell correctly?

Do not read about it .. I repeat it is seductive, steaming pile of BS (not quantum mechanics or mysticism but quantum mysticism).
Sounds good to me. I teach my graduate Quantum class about Bell's theorem and Deutch's algorithm. It's not easy to get those ideas across without a good grounding in physics and math.

It's depressing to see misunderstood science being used to make money...

Mike

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:04 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:18 am
onceruturner,
I think you are using the wrong concept of "information". In physics they are not using it to mean something that is held in the mind....in physics it means more like IF you knew everything about a particle and its environment then that information is enough to determing then entire history of that particle for example where it was and what its environment was at any previous time.......it is sort of like determinism only going back in time instead of forwards in time...

I am not a physicist so some or all of what I have said may be wrong.
chownah
Hi Chownah

Physicists say that information in not stored in body or mind, it's in the quantum particles. This is way beyond my knowledge. There's another dimensions in particle physics. About 11 instead of 3. Only 3 dimensions we can observe in real life.

That's why great minds like Hawking are so honorable.

String theory is something I can't understand :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:07 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:44 am
...

I would welcome any one who knows quantum physics to correct my example. I have often wondered did I understand what those guys were trying to sell correctly?

Do not read about it .. I repeat it is seductive, steaming pile of BS (not quantum mechanics or mysticism but quantum mysticism).
Sounds good to me. I teach my graduate Quantum class about Bell's theorem and Deutch's algorithm. It's not easy to get those ideas across without a good grounding in physics and math.

It's depressing to see misunderstood science being used to make money...

Mike
So you are a scientist, please let me know what happened before big bang. I'm really curious about this topic.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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mikenz66
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:26 am

oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am
It's depressing to see misunderstood science being used to make money...
Mike
So you are a scientist, please let me know what happened before big bang. I'm really curious about this topic.
I've no idea. It's not my area. As far as I know, there are various possible models, but working out how to test them is very difficult.

It's worth thinking about, though, as it's possible that someone will come up with something that could be tested. Similarly, physicists put quite a lot of effort trying to work out if quantum entanglement could be used to transmit information. As far as we know, it can not, but it would obviously be really important if it could, so it is worth thinking about.

Unfortunately, when presented in non-expert terminology accessible to the public, some of this work sounds like we are just making stuff up... :tongue:
And there is an element of wanting to make it sound exciting, to to help get the work funded...

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:26 am
oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am
It's depressing to see misunderstood science being used to make money...
Mike
So you are a scientist, please let me know what happened before big bang. I'm really curious about this topic.
I've no idea. It's not my area. As far as I know, there are various possible models, but working out how to test them is very difficult.

It's worth thinking about, though, as it's possible that someone will come up with something that could be tested. Similarly, physicists put quite a lot of effort trying to work out if quantum entanglement could be used to transmit information. As far as we know, it can not, but it would obviously be really important if it could, so it is worth thinking about.

Unfortunately, when presented in non-expert terminology accessible to the public, some of this work sounds like we are just making stuff up... :tongue:
And there is an element of wanting to make it sound exciting, to to help get the work funded...

:heart:
Mike
I heard about a stange theory. According to this, universe expand and then collapse again into a big bang. Big bang is a never ending process of expanding and collapsing. True or not, no ones knows. Only thing is sure, that arrow of time started that moment, big bang lasted only a fragment of second, the aftermath was very long.

Side note : my greatest fear is Sir David Attenborough is very old, and he will not live forever...
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:32 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:26 am
oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am
It's depressing to see misunderstood science being used to make money...
Mike
So you are a scientist, please let me know what happened before big bang. I'm really curious about this topic.
I've no idea. It's not my area. As far as I know, there are various possible models, but working out how to test them is very difficult.

It's worth thinking about, though, as it's possible that someone will come up with something that could be tested. Similarly, physicists put quite a lot of effort trying to work out if quantum entanglement could be used to transmit information. As far as we know, it can not, but it would obviously be really important if it could, so it is worth thinking about.

Unfortunately, when presented in non-expert terminology accessible to the public, some of this work sounds like we are just making stuff up... :tongue:
And there is an element of wanting to make it sound exciting, to to help get the work funded...

:heart:
Mike
Scientists already invested multi million dollars in the great hadron collider in Switzerland as you know. With this device they try to make a tiny black hole, and maybe a "mini big bang". I hope they'll find something.

Just a joke: when you feel too much gravity, it means they made it. :)
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 pm

I've read the Brief history of time. I also have an audiobook called Grand design. I wiped out my device, only this book is remaining, but never had the time to listening it. Now it's too late... :cry:

I also have planet earth 2, last movie of Sir David Attenborogh. I'm going to watch it, before...
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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Sam Vara
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:57 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 pm
I've read the Brief history of time. I also have an audiobook called Grand design. I wiped out my device, only this book is remaining, but never had the time to listening it. Now it's too late... :cry:

I also have planet earth 2, last movie of Sir David Attenborogh. I'm going to watch it, before...
Oncereturner, an author or presenter dying doesn't stop you reading or watching their work. That used to be the case before we had the ability to record culture, but it's a lot easier these days...

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:57 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 pm
I've read the Brief history of time. I also have an audiobook called Grand design. I wiped out my device, only this book is remaining, but never had the time to listening it. Now it's too late... :cry:

I also have planet earth 2, last movie of Sir David Attenborogh. I'm going to watch it, before...
Oncereturner, an author or presenter dying doesn't stop you reading or watching their work. That used to be the case before we had the ability to record culture, but it's a lot easier these days...
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Critiquing the life of Stephen Hawking

Post by oncereturner » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:57 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 pm
I've read the Brief history of time. I also have an audiobook called Grand design. I wiped out my device, only this book is remaining, but never had the time to listening it. Now it's too late... :cry:

I also have planet earth 2, last movie of Sir David Attenborogh. I'm going to watch it, before...
Oncereturner, an author or presenter dying doesn't stop you reading or watching their work. That used to be the case before we had the ability to record culture, but it's a lot easier these days...
Thank you for your advice. I've listened to Grand design, it took 3 hours.

It's super relaxing and inspiring. :) He must had 200+ IQ or more.

Maybe he was the greatest mind of all time, it's amazing.

He talks about anti-color of quarks and virtual particles, super symmetry, string theory, curling up of particles, quantum electrodynamics, quantum chromodymamics, multiverse in the detail.

However he couldn't provide a final answer to all my questions. He mentioned a word called "singularity" and "barions".

Sometimes in meditation I imagine myself in interstellar space, you know there's a cosmic void.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_(astronomy)
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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