keep liberalism out of buddhism

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DooDoot
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:13 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 am
"Cultural Marxist SJW" is just an identy created in the imagination of the reactionary right, in any case... :thinking:
Not really. As a mere example, if a say a certain woman may have spinal pains due to having large breasts, I may get accused by a cultural Marxist of 'misogyny' (despite my merely stating a fact). When SN 37.3 says there are five types of suffering particular to women, is SN 37.3 misogynist here?

Personally, I was challenging the view of the OP that women are forced by society into submissive roles (since I think both men & women can enslave themselves in submissive roles due to natural internal defilements). However, this view of the OP is certainly classic Cultural Marxism, i.e., the belief women are oppressed. This is what Marxism is; the doctrine of oppression & revolution against the perceived oppression.

Therefore, maybe I was wrong is saying the OP was not misogynist. Upon re-evaluation, the OP sounds misogynist because the OP believes women are oppressed but wants women to accept their oppression. I apologise MikeNZ66. I was wrong. :tongue:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:23 am

Well, of course, people sometimes say dumb stuff. And of course there are gender differences. But in my experience this SJW labelling only comes up as a dismissive concept used in reactionary-right rhetoric...

Your milage may vary...

In any case I don't thing political rhetoric from any angle is a useful measure of the Dhamma.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:28 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:23 am
But in my experience this SJW labelling only comes up as a dismissive concept used in reactionary-right rhetoric...
I disagree. As soon as someone jumps out, with little rationale or discussion, accusing another of 'misogyny', 'racism' , 'antisemitism', 'Nazism', etc, that is generally the Cultural Marxist approach. For example, you were the only poster here to respond in that manner. The other posters who disagreed with the OP sought to engage in a discussion with the OP about the OP's views. Personally, the last thing I would accuse the poster of was 'misogyny' because I viewed the poster as sincere yet wrong. However, upon reflection, I can see how the post might look genuinely 'misogynist' although that was not my first impression.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:33 am

I didn't accuse the poster of mysogyny, I said it was a mysogynistic argument. Please pay attention.

You are, of coruse, welcome to argue with my conclusion (or about whether, in fact, I chose my words carefully enough) since I may have been mistaken, but trotting out rhetoric and stories about being abused in other contexts is not actually an argument.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:42 am

Sure. But I rarely react in those ways because I generally view phenomena in terms of causes & conditions. I view women as generally 'needy', like feminist groupies that might cling to a certain monk. Thus women, due to their own needs, can become submissive. I also view men as generally needy, who might cling to women they believe they need. Thus men, due to their own needs, can become submissive. I view things about women that annoy men. I view things about men that annoy women. I'm not so much into labels like 'misogyny'. The ordinary world is interconnected, as the Buddha taught. Ordinary men need women; ordinary women need men. Thus, each must submit to each other in a wholesome way & recognise each other's needs.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Upeksha » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:14 am

Just out of interest, when people here say 'keep liberalism out Buddhism,' what do they mean by 'liberalism?'

i.e. in America this term signifies a kind of progressive politics. But in political philosophy it signifies a tradition of thinking which has its roots in figures such as John Locke, Immanuel Kant and JS Mill + contemporary thinkers such as John Rawls and Isaiah Berlin.

There are many different strands of political liberalism, some of which are contradictory, but all tend to privilege two key principles: 1. private property rights. 2. maximum freedom for the individual from the state.

Is this what people here want 'out' of Buddhism? Or are they using the term loosely to signify something like 'progressive views I don't like.'

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:16 am

Greetings Upeksha,
Upeksha wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:14 am
Just out of interest, when people here say 'keep liberalism out Buddhism,' what do they mean by 'liberalism?'
I'm guessing they're really referring to the post-modern form of 'progressivism'.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Upeksha » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:16 am
Greetings Upeksha,
Upeksha wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:14 am
Just out of interest, when people here say 'keep liberalism out Buddhism,' what do they mean by 'liberalism?'
I'm guessing they're really referring to the post-modern form of 'progressivism'.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Okay, well if the thread is to take shape in a meaningful way, it is best to get clear about all of this.

Post-modern thinkers tend to be highly critical of liberalism.

What is called 'cultural marxism' is not post-modern at all - this has its roots in 20th century German thinkers (Adorno, Marcuse, Fromm) influenced by Freud, Hegel and Marx.

I think people are pretty confused about all of this.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:45 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:35 pm
I asked for sutta suuport for a particular idea. Not tired rhetoric about sjws, which has no relevance to the question.

I'm waiting....
i already posted soma sutta which unequivocally teaches against any form of identity politics
Sorry, I don't understand how that sutta has anything to do with the Alt-right rhetoric of "Identity Politics", "SJWs", and other such labelling. Why bring in these non-Buddhist concepts into the conversation?
these aren't alt-right concepts. i used to be a communist. leftists use them too & they refer accurately to a specific phenomenon. anyway if they were it wouldn't invalidate them.

the sutta is clearly relevant, Mara is discriminating against Soma for being a woman & she more or less responds with a simple "I'm not a woman". That's not very feminist is it?
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
Clearly the Path is about trancending identity. However, what you seem to be advocating here is what some Mahayana teachers (apologies for mentioning the Enemy) would call "emptiness sickness" - ignoring worldly conditions, and the necessary work needed to overcome them, in a futile attempt to jump directly to awakening.
where does the buddha say we need to fight politically against worldly conditions
hint: he does not, anywhere at all. & there's much i'm sure that'd suggest otherwise e.g. the 10fold wrong speech
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
The Path, after all, involves right speech, action, livelihood.
yes & those all manifest as forms of abstinence, nothing proactive that would serve a political function.
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
I thought you might bring up passages such as:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato#sc23
great yes i will co-opt this & use it in favor of my argument.

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
I would have two things to say about that:
1. That is a very advanced practice, though one that I've heard Tibetan monks talk about in relation to their attitude towards the Chinese invasion.
2. The Buddha did not forbid even monks from defending themselves physically, or admonishing others. However, as that, and other, Suttas indicate, one should not speak or act out of malice.

:heart:
Mike
it being advanced is 1) debatable & 2) no excuse whatsoever for transgressing it. to suggest otherwise is regrettable.

self-defense & admonishment are different & these are valid forms of acting against misogyngy & racism etc. on an interpersonal 1-on-1 level, when the opportunity arises & one has the chance to actually do something.

trying to solve these problems systemically on the other hand is foolish & a waste of one's efforts. it's like trying to remove all the suffering in the world without removing one's own.


:anjali:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:46 am

Upeksha wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:14 am
Just out of interest, when people here say 'keep liberalism out Buddhism,' what do they mean by 'liberalism?'

i.e. in America this term signifies a kind of progressive politics. But in political philosophy it signifies a tradition of thinking which has its roots in figures such as John Locke, Immanuel Kant and JS Mill + contemporary thinkers such as John Rawls and Isaiah Berlin.

There are many different strands of political liberalism, some of which are contradictory, but all tend to privilege two key principles: 1. private property rights. 2. maximum freedom for the individual from the state.

Is this what people here want 'out' of Buddhism? Or are they using the term loosely to signify something like 'progressive views I don't like.'
i mean identity politics & social justice - modern american liberalism. not classical economic liberalism altho i can complain about that too if u'd like :)
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Upeksha » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:16 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:46 am
Upeksha wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:14 am
Just out of interest, when people here say 'keep liberalism out Buddhism,' what do they mean by 'liberalism?'

i.e. in America this term signifies a kind of progressive politics. But in political philosophy it signifies a tradition of thinking which has its roots in figures such as John Locke, Immanuel Kant and JS Mill + contemporary thinkers such as John Rawls and Isaiah Berlin.

There are many different strands of political liberalism, some of which are contradictory, but all tend to privilege two key principles: 1. private property rights. 2. maximum freedom for the individual from the state.

Is this what people here want 'out' of Buddhism? Or are they using the term loosely to signify something like 'progressive views I don't like.'
i mean identity politics & social justice - modern american liberalism. not classical economic liberalism altho i can complain about that too if u'd like :)
I am sympathetic to the view that identity politics and Buddhadhamma are contradictory. But this cuts both ways - i.e. left and right. Often people on the right wager deep critiques of identity politics whilst failing to realise that they are deeply invested in particular forms of identity politics.

As for social justice - well, this is a more vexing question. I think it depends upon which specific issue, and what kinds of moral-poitical arguments are made in support of them. Which ones are you rallying against? And why? And how much of your reasoning is shaped by Buddhism?

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:31 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:45 am
..
self-defense & admonishment are different & these are valid forms of acting against misogyngy & racism etc. on an interpersonal 1-on-1 level, when the opportunity arises & one has the chance to actually do something.

trying to solve these problems systemically on the other hand is foolish & a waste of one's efforts. it's like trying to remove all the suffering in the world without removing one's own.
Thank you for presenting some thoughtful opinions.

One question I would ask is where you think "interpersonal" stops and "systematic" begins. I have a responsibility to deal with such issues at an organisational level, and I see that as part of my "right speech, action, livelihood". And I have seen some gratifying changes over the past few decades, in my country, and my organisation.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:00 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:57 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:50 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:46 pm
my view here is: dhamma practice is the best way to deal with the suffering of oppression, & it's impossibly to fully remove oppression in all forms from the world

that's it.
Since nobody [edit: in this discussion] disagrees with this stance of yours, it's not clear what the problem is.
yes it's not clear to me either. i think my wording pissed people off & triggered their social justice defense-mechanisms so they freaked out & assumed things I didn't say
You did not state your stance (underlined) this way in the beginning.
In your OP, you said:
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am
the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
Which I questioned, and asked you
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 am
It's not clear how my suffering as a woman would be alleviated if I would "accept that society forces me into a submissive role".
Can you explain?
Which you didn't explain, but just stated
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:06 pm
well given that you don't already accept it, of course; in such a case accepting it would relieve you of the pain of feeling oppressed
Since you're not an oracle, and I don't believe in divination, I expect some explanations, with canonical support.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:51 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:31 am
One question I would ask is where you think "interpersonal" stops and "systematic" begins.
I think people tend to refer to notions of "society" (or "system") when they have some use for doing so. This use can be of two kinds: 1. to abolish or deny personal responsibility ("It's society's / the system's fault /responsibility, not mine"), and 2. to get personal gain ("Society / the system says that this is so, therefore, you should obey what I say and be like I want you to be, because it's not really I who wants that from you, but society / the system").
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DNS » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:56 pm

Fighting oppression or what the alt-right would call the SJWs can be found somewhat in Buddhism; known as engaged Buddhism. Some of the points they make to justify their actions include the Buddha's teachings on generosity and compassion. There is a jataka tale or Commentary passage of the Buddha going to the battlefield to stop a war. So there can be some doctrinal support for their position.

The other side, opposing actions to change the system point out the passive teachings of the Buddha and the generally non-political teachings of the Buddha where focus is supposed to be on your own mind and your own path.

I take a middle-way position. :tongue: One should certainly focus on one's own path, but there is nothing wrong with trying to improve conditions for yourself and others and there is a Sutta where the Buddha states the best practice is focusing on your own welfare and those of others. There may not be any requirement to do so, but I believe if a person wants to, he/she can try to change the system all the while still focusing on the internal Buddhist practice too.

And if practicing the Buddhist path is one's goal there may be some obstacles preventing that which require some changes in external conditions, for example, one who is denied basic health care, schooling, access to Dhamma books and instruction, or even basic necessities due to living in a war-torn zone, discrimination, etc.

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