keep liberalism out of buddhism

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DooDoot
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:02 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:50 pm
doodooT, the evidence is in digha nikaya, if not in other places... point is, seeing past lives is verifiable thru meditation, and not thru any other means that i know of, according to the suttas, and only because it is hard to verify does not invalidate it. your quote says 'verifiable' not 'easily verifiable' or verifiable to an untrained worldling.
Sorry but there is no meditative or scriptural evidence. Inaccurate translations are not scriptural evidence, let alone meditative evidence.

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:36 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm

For example, one woman cannot change that there are men in this world who abuse women, but she may very well be able to leave her abusive boyfriend.
yes great, she should do that, this is reasonable.
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm
And yet here we are, living quite comfortably because other people before us struggled to make the world a better place.
i don't believe in this sort of political materialist causality. my material comfort is probably mostly due to kamma
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:37 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:00 pm
”Monks, a man endowed with a single quality controls the woman. What is that single quality? It is authority.

“Monks, the woman controlled by the power of authority cannot overcome it by her power of beauty, of wealth, of relatives, of sons or of virtue.”

SN 37.28

I think it is obvious that men and women are not completely equal in every aspect, that is just retarded to say.
What does SN 37.27 say? SN 37.27 says it is within a woman's power to control her husband (a man).

Also, it sounds retarded to believe you have the power to control a woman. Possibly, the meaning of SN 37.28 should be examined more closely.
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:12 pm
Seemingly 37.28 is the exception to the rule of 37.27
Alternatively maybe it could be that is she has all 5 she can overcome the 1 but i am not sure what is meant.
It seems to all depend on the meaning of the translation: "Power of authority".
pasahati
pa + sah + a
uses force; subdues; oppresses.

SN 37.26
Anuga ( -- ˚) (adj. -- suff.) [fr. anu + gam] following or fol- lowed by, going after, undergoing, being in or under, standing under the influence of Sn 332 (vasa˚ in the power of), 791 (ejā˚ = abhibhūta Sn 527), 1095 (Māra<-> vasa˚ = abhibhuyya viharanti Nd2 507); It 91 (ejā˚); J iii.224 (vasa˚ = vasavattin C.); Mhvs 7, 3.

SN 37.27
issariya
neuter
power, control, authority; royal power, kingship; pomp.

SN 37.28
Now, SN 37.28 does not say whether this 'issariya' is wholesome or unwholesome. For example, in SN 3.25, 'issariya' is used to refer to an unwholesome intoxication.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:38 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:25 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:14 pm
I think the suffering of oppression is certainly one which must be accepted because we cannot change the whole world. Really it's impossible, & even if it were possible it is a long-term goal that will only yield fruit far in the future.
Not true. MLK, John Lewis, Gandhi, Mandela, etc. One can work on internal conditions and external conditions at the same time and see results within their own lifetime. Untouchables were ordained in the Buddha's Sangha.

"Birth makes no Brahmin, nor non-Brahmin, makes; it is life's doing that mold the Brahmin true. Their lives mold farmers, tradesmen, merchants, and serfs. Their lives mold robbers, soldiers, chaplains, and kings. By birth is not one an out-caste. By birth is not one a Brahmin. By deeds is one an out-caste. By deeds is one a Brahmin."

(Majjhima Nikaya 98, Vasettha Sutta 57-59)
none of those people eradicated oppression. it's still here, all over the world.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DNS
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:42 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:38 pm
none of those people eradicated oppression. it's still here, all over the world.
It is by far much better than before. South Africa had apartheid. In America, regardless if you think Obama was a good president or not, there is no way he would have had any chance of winning the presidency back in the early to mid-20th century and if he was in the South, he may have even been prevented from voting.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:45 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:36 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm
For example, one woman cannot change that there are men in this world who abuse women, but she may very well be able to leave her abusive boyfriend.
yes great, she should do that, this is reasonable.
And thus she can do something about being oppressed, do something other than just accept that she is oppressed.
IOW, disproving your point.
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm
And yet here we are, living quite comfortably because other people before us struggled to make the world a better place.
i don't believe in this sort of political materialist causality. my material comfort is probably mostly due to kamma
You think you have a comfortably fast internet connection because of your kamma?

Besides, I'm not talking only about bodily comforts. For example, when I was new to Buddhism, even just mentioning a particular Buddhist teacher would make one a persona non grata in some Buddhist circles. And yet, years later, this teacher is now quite respected and you get to read his Dhamma talks and translations of suttas. This is at least partly because some of us took the force of the blow and stood firm in the face of oppression.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:45 pm

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman:
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:46 pm

my view here is: dhamma practice is the best way to deal with the suffering of oppression, & it's impossibly to fully remove oppression in all forms from the world

that's it.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:45 pm
:strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman:
What a dhammic comment.
:rolleye:

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:50 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:46 pm
my view here is: dhamma practice is the best way to deal with the suffering of oppression, & it's impossibly to fully remove oppression in all forms from the world

that's it.
Since nobody [edit: in this discussion] disagrees with this stance of yours, it's not clear what the problem is.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:57 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:50 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:46 pm
my view here is: dhamma practice is the best way to deal with the suffering of oppression, & it's impossibly to fully remove oppression in all forms from the world

that's it.
Since nobody [edit: in this discussion] disagrees with this stance of yours, it's not clear what the problem is.
yes it's not clear to me either. i think my wording pissed people off & triggered their social justice defense-mechanisms so they freaked out & assumed things I didn't say
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:09 pm

Let's get back to ideas. How about giving some sutta support for the idea that acceptance fixes suffering? As I said, it sounds like one of those liberal "California Buddhism" memes.

Excuse my lack of a long exposition, I am on my mobile.

Mike

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:22 pm

using social justice & politics & activism to solve one's suffering sounds like "California Buddhism" to me.

stepping away from all this & from the world altogether is not something a wook hippy casual-"buddhist" would do
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:33 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:22 pm
using social justice & politics & activism to solve one's suffering sounds like "California Buddhism" to me.

stepping away from all this & from the world altogether is not something a wook hippy casual-"buddhist" would do
I asked for sutta suuport for a particular idea. Not tired rhetoric about sjws, which has no relevance to the question.

I'm waiting....

Mike

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:35 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:33 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:22 pm
using social justice & politics & activism to solve one's suffering sounds like "California Buddhism" to me.

stepping away from all this & from the world altogether is not something a wook hippy casual-"buddhist" would do
I asked for sutta suuport for a particular idea. Not tired rhetoric about sjws, which has no relevance to the question.

I'm waiting....

Mike
i already posted soma sutta which unequivocally teaches against any form of identity politics
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:35 pm
I asked for sutta suuport for a particular idea. Not tired rhetoric about sjws, which has no relevance to the question.

I'm waiting....
i already posted soma sutta which unequivocally teaches against any form of identity politics
Sorry, I don't understand how that sutta has anything to do with the Alt-right rhetoric of "Identity Politics", "SJWs", and other such labelling. Why bring in these non-Buddhist concepts into the conversation?

Clearly the Path is about trancending identity. However, what you seem to be advocating here is what some Mahayana teachers (apologies for mentioning the Enemy) would call "emptiness sickness" - ignoring worldly conditions, and the necessary work needed to overcome them, in a futile attempt to jump directly to awakening.

The Path, after all, involves right speech, action, livelihood.

I thought you might bring up passages such as:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato#sc23
I would have two things to say about that:
1. That is a very advanced practice, though one that I've heard Tibetan monks talk about in relation to their attitude towards the Chinese invasion.
2. The Buddha did not forbid even monks from defending themselves physically, or admonishing others. However, as that, and other, Suttas indicate, one should not speak or act out of malice.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:25 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
"emptiness sickness" - ignoring worldly conditions, and the necessary work needed to overcome them, in a futile attempt to jump directly to awakening.

"worldly sickness" - ignoring the truth, and the necessary work needed to overcome ignorance, in a futile attempt to heal the world

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:31 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:25 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am
"emptiness sickness" - ignoring worldly conditions, and the necessary work needed to overcome them, in a futile attempt to jump directly to awakening.

"worldly sickness" - ignoring the truth, and the necessary work needed to overcome ignorance, in a futile attempt to heal the world
Excellent point. Both extremes seem unproductive.
And how does a person practice to benefit both themselves and others? It’s when a person practices to remove their own greed, hate, and delusion, and encourages others to remove theirs. That’s how a person practices to benefit both themselves and others. These are the four people found in the world.”
https://suttacentral.net/an4.96/en/sujato#sc5
“Mendicants, a good person is born in a family for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of the people. For the benefit, welfare, and happiness of mother and father; children and partners; bondservants, workers, and staff; friends and colleagues; and ascetics and brahmins.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.42/en/sujato#sc1
:heart:
Mike

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:39 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am
the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
I think the above Cultural Marxist SJW comment (which blames society rather attributes causes to other factors) has not been confirmed to be true or challenged.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:39 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am
the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
I think the above Cultural Marxist SJW comment (which blames society rather attributes causes to other factors) has not been confirmed to be true or challenged.
"Cultural Marxist SJW" is just an identy created in the imagination of the reactionary right, in any case... :thinking:

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