keep liberalism out of buddhism

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:59 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:56 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:50 pm

how in the world is it misogynist or racist to suggest that people accept their misfortunes? i'm not saying the unfortunate circumstances faced by women or racial minorities are in any way good, they are not, it sucks & I am sympathetic to them...I'm saying that the solution is not a movement of social resistance that aims to change the whole world but instead an internal realignment of perspective.
Well, if people criticise you for this attitude, you could hardly complain, could you? It would just be pointed out to you that, instead of complaining, you should just accept your misfortune. Forbearance is a wonderful thing, especially if everyone plays.
What complaining is there? I just responded with a legitimate question & perspective as a continuation of the discussion
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:03 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:50 pm
how in the world is it misogynist or racist to suggest that people accept their misfortunes? i'm not saying the unfortunate circumstances faced by women or racial minorities are in any way good, they are not, it sucks & I am sympathetic to them...I'm saying that the solution is not a movement of social resistance that aims to change the whole world but instead an internal realignment of perspective.
You're operating out of a false dichotomy -- a fallacious limitation of options. There are more options than just those two that you mention. There is also at least a third option: there is some change of one's perspective accompanied by making some changes in society.

You probably know the suttas better than I. You can probably remember those that state that some troubles need to be endured, and some actively acted against. Bottomline, not all troubles are such that they would need to be endured.

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mikenz66
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:05 pm

Dylan, I currently manage a unit of 60 people. In the past I have had to deal with people who simply cannot see how their actions and words undermine colleagues who are female or minority. Luckily, it's now the 21st century, and things have improved somewhat.

Of course, if one has the luxury of renouncing the world and ignoring one's current problems, then your statements might possibley be useful.

However, I questioning the logic that if people "just accept their suffering" then then their suffering will go away. I don't think that's what the Buddha taught - if anything it sounds like that liberal so-called "California Buddhism" where one is urged to just go with the flow.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:03 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:50 pm
how in the world is it misogynist or racist to suggest that people accept their misfortunes? i'm not saying the unfortunate circumstances faced by women or racial minorities are in any way good, they are not, it sucks & I am sympathetic to them...I'm saying that the solution is not a movement of social resistance that aims to change the whole world but instead an internal realignment of perspective.
You're operating out of a false dichotomy -- a fallacious limitation of options. There are more options than just those two that you mention. There is also at least a third option: there is some change of one's perspective accompanied by making some changes in society.

You probably know the suttas better than I. You can probably remember those that state that some troubles need to be endured, and some actively acted against. Bottomline, not all troubles are such that they would need to be endured.
No there's no false dichotomy, all I said is that of the two options - social activism & acceptance - the latter is more important for ending one's pains
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:08 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:06 pm
No there's no false dichotomy, all I said is that of the two options - social activism & acceptance - the latter is more important for ending one's pains
Okay, then support your stance by providing a canonical reference that states that all troubles must be endured.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:09 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:05 pm
Dylan, I currently manage a unit of 60 people. In the past I have had to deal with people who simply cannot see how their actions and words undermine colleagues who are female or minority. Luckily, it's now the 21st century, and things have improved somewhat.

Of course, if one has the luxury of renouncing the world and ignoring one's current problems, then your statements might possibley be useful.

However, I questioning the logic that if people "just accept their suffering" then then their suffering will go away. I don't think that's what the Buddha taught - if anything it sounds like that liberal so-called "California Buddhism" where one is urged to just go with the flow.

:heart:
Mike
okay. thanks for your perspective.

i want you to back up your claims of misogyny/racism please. i think they are uncalled for
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:08 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:06 pm
No there's no false dichotomy, all I said is that of the two options - social activism & acceptance - the latter is more important for ending one's pains
Okay, then support your stance by providing a canonical reference that states that all troubles must be endured.
that's not my stance

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:14 pm

I think the suffering of oppression is certainly one which must be accepted because we cannot change the whole world. Really it's impossible, & even if it were possible it is a long-term goal that will only yield fruit far in the future. Simply by virtue of the fact that we are in the human realm where there are different races, different sexes, different sexualities & so on - where beings are affected by conceit & ill-will & delusion - there is inevitably inequality & discrimination. It is a suffering, of course. It is unfortunate, of course. It is unfair, of course. But this whole existence is such. If you want to escape these sufferings you should aim to be reborn in the Brahma realms where there's no sexual dichotomy. If you want to end these sufferings here & now you can eradicate your conceit & see that there is nothing in you to be oppressed.
Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Soma, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:

That state so hard to achieve
Which is to be attained by the seers,
Can't be attained by a woman
With her two-fingered wisdom.

Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Soma: "Now who is this that recited the verse — a human being or a non-human being?" Then it occurred to her: "This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited the verse desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in me, desiring to make me fall away from concentration."

Then the bhikkhuni Soma, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:

What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.

One to whom it might occur,
'I'm a woman' or 'I'm a man'
Or 'I'm anything at all' —
Is fit for Mara to address.
SN 5.2
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:16 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:10 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:08 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:06 pm
No there's no false dichotomy, all I said is that of the two options - social activism & acceptance - the latter is more important for ending one's pains
Okay, then support your stance by providing a canonical reference that states that all troubles must be endured.
that's not my stance
Then what exactly is your stance? That, in particular, women and minorities would do best to just accept their suffering, and this would alleviate their suffering?

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:16 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:09 pm
i want you to back up your claims of misogyny/racism please. i think they are uncalled for
In my opinion those ideas are excuses for not dealing with mysogyny and racism. That's all I'm saying.

If you think that stating that is a personal attack on you, I apologise for upsetting you. However, this is a Forum about ideas, and the idea that suffering can be alleviated merely by accepting is deserves careful attention.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:18 pm

I keep think that the Tathagata did not even want to teach to begin with, how much less should we care about what other people do.
Why should i care if people create obstacles for themselves and are on a bad Path... Why should i compromise my well-being for other people, let people do what they want imo, hell is that way, heaven is that way, deathless is that way, the Dhamma is there for all to read and see.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:20 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:05 pm
However, I questioning the logic that if people "just accept their suffering" then then their suffering will go away. I don't think that's what the Buddha taught - if anything it sounds like that liberal so-called "California Buddhism" where one is urged to just go with the flow.
It also sounds like something young and inexperienced people would say; possibly also those who themselves are oppressed but see no way to change the situation.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:23 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:14 pm
... If you want to escape these sufferings you should aim to be reborn in the Brahma realms where there's no sexual dichotomy. If you want to end these sufferings here & now you can eradicate your conceit & see that there is nothing in you to be oppressed.
If you are already in a reasonably good situation, with time and space for development, this might be good advice. Otherwise, it may not be a practical option.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:25 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:14 pm
I think the suffering of oppression is certainly one which must be accepted because we cannot change the whole world. Really it's impossible, & even if it were possible it is a long-term goal that will only yield fruit far in the future.
Not true. MLK, John Lewis, Gandhi, Mandela, etc. One can work on internal conditions and external conditions at the same time and see results within their own lifetime. Untouchables were ordained in the Buddha's Sangha.

"Birth makes no Brahmin, nor non-Brahmin, makes; it is life's doing that mold the Brahmin true. Their lives mold farmers, tradesmen, merchants, and serfs. Their lives mold robbers, soldiers, chaplains, and kings. By birth is not one an out-caste. By birth is not one a Brahmin. By deeds is one an out-caste. By deeds is one a Brahmin."

(Majjhima Nikaya 98, Vasettha Sutta 57-59)

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:38 am
knowledge of the modes and details of past lives is verifiable thru meditation and besides matters that arent immediately verifiable can be taken on faith.
There is no evidence for the first statement, above, about "past lives"; which is again taken on faith.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:27 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:14 pm
I think the suffering of oppression is certainly one which must be accepted because we cannot change the whole world. Really it's impossible, & even if it were possible it is a long-term goal that will only yield fruit far in the future. Simply by virtue of the fact that we are in the human realm where there are different races, different sexes, different sexualities & so on - where beings are affected by conceit & ill-will & delusion - there is inevitably inequality & discrimination. It is a suffering, of course. It is unfortunate, of course. It is unfair, of course. But this whole existence is such. If you want to escape these sufferings you should aim to be reborn in the Brahma realms where there's no sexual dichotomy. If you want to end these sufferings here & now you can eradicate your conceit & see that there is nothing in you to be oppressed.
You underestimate human action and human activism.
There are things that one can change, and things that one cannot change, at least not in the foreseeable future.
For example, one woman cannot change that there are men in this world who abuse women, but she may very well be able to leave her abusive boyfriend.
& even if it were possible it is a long-term goal that will only yield fruit far in the future.
And yet here we are, living quite comfortably because other people before us struggled to make the world a better place.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:50 pm

doodooT, the evidence is in digha nikaya, if not in other places
actually, it is in other places im just not going to spend several minutes trying to get a tab to load to cite sources. digha nikaya is good enough, if you dont like it you just dont like it. point is, seeing past lives is verifiable thru meditation, and not thru any other means that i know of, according to the suttas, and only because it is hard to verify does not invalidate it. your quote says 'verifiable' not 'easily verifiable' or verifiable to an untrained worldling.
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:52 pm

the buddha doesn't say default to disagreeing with him without direct knowledge, he just says verify his teachings thru your experience
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:53 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:58 pm
you are calling it misogynist & racist, that is more than mere disagreement. & I am simply asking you to back those claims up - I've read your post fine enough
I agree the Cultural Marxist attack upon you was unrelated to the Buddha-Dhamma. If the Buddha-Dhamma taught the reality was society forces women into a submissive role then your comment would not be misogynist but true. Personally, I did not find your statement to be inherently "misogynist" although I do think your statement is "wrong" or "not real".

You need to demonstrate the Buddha-Dhamma teaches:

1. Society forces women into a submissive role by & large.

2. Such a submissive role is the view or path of Buddha-Dhamma.

You are yet to show your idea is the right view of Buddha-Dhamma.
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am
the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large...

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:00 pm

”Monks, a man endowed with a single quality controls the woman. What is that single quality? It is authority.

“Monks, the woman controlled by the power of authority cannot overcome it by her power of beauty, of wealth, of relatives, of sons or of virtue.”
sn37.28
I think it is obvious that men and women are not completely equal in every aspect, that is just retarded to say. They are equal where it counts the most tho:)
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
How to Destroy any addiction - Ven. Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
How to Meditate: Vipassana Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors & Perceptions
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."

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