keep liberalism out of buddhism

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dylanj
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keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am

Image

women are fine but to grasp at one's gender & take personally the disparity between genders that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

i'm pretty sure the buddha used male pronouns to refer to people at large as is reflected in the pali & to change that in the name of "female empowerment" is a mistake imho. do these people think he made a poor choice of words?

the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:03 am

Image
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:05 am

western buddhism is mostly crap i guess

we all know buddhism is dying as the buddha taught

i have had the thought that maybe like the sun, the dhamma rises in the east & goes to the west to cease
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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cappuccino
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 pm

be careful not to slander an entire direction of the earth!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:12 pm

post the pāḷi so others may confirm. i have seen other verses where the buddha speaks of a man or a woman.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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TamHanhHi
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by TamHanhHi » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Candābhattheravatthu (Source)
Candaṃva vimalaṃ suddhaṃ,
vippasannamanāvilaṃ;
Nandībhavaparikkhīṇaṃ,
tamahaṃ brūmi brāhmaṇaṃ.

Bhante Buddharakhita's English translation does not include any feminine pronouns, but I can't read Pali anyway so I can't say if Pali is like this or it's a translation style :shrug:

I do know that different translations of the Metta Sutta sometimes say "one" instead of "he".
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38 :candle: | Blog at http://dhammareflections.wordpress.com

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 pm

neither can i. would be prudent to know if there are gender neutral pronouns in this language or if masculine is used neutrally, like it is in romance languages
i agree with dont cuck yourself to the world's inferior or disproportionate treatment of women, thus subjugating yourself to womanhood. if anyone would rush to the defense of women in this way (or to bash them) they would do well to read soma sutta or the discourse on identity
i dont really agree with dylan's tone. western buddhism has its challenges but is not crap. to the extent that it contains actual buddhadhamma it is pure and bright. it should be held to high esteem and efforts made to improve it rather than denigrate it.
if it does turn out the buddha was referring to man when he said this does it still apply to women? we can maintain a conservative approach to translating texts while recognizing dhamma as dhamma
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 pm

TamHanhHi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 pm
Candābhattheravatthu (Source)
Candaṃva vimalaṃ suddhaṃ,
vippasannamanāvilaṃ;
Nandībhavaparikkhīṇaṃ,
tamahaṃ brūmi brāhmaṇaṃ.
It seems the key term here is brāhmaṇa & whether it can be gender neutral? Are there any places in the suttas, such as in the Therīgāthā, where an arahant bhikkhuni is referred to as 'brāhmaṇa'? :shrug:

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm

Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world

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cappuccino
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm

inequality is part of the difficulty inherent in existence

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Sam Vara
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm
Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
:thumbsup: Good point. I also liked the breezy assurance of "Women are fine..." Our mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, Dhammadinna, Upasika Kee Nanayon, Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, etc: They've passed the Dylan test, so you're OK to take it slowly, brothers...

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by BasementBuddhist » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:34 pm

Just because the world is filled with ignorance, and this ignorance causes women to be seen as inferior, doesn't mean we should just go along with the idea. We are seeking to remove ignorance, not submit to it.

Also, if the core message of the text isn't lost, then why does it matter if we use he or she? The Buddha said that women are just as capable of achieving enlightenment as men. The woman who raised the Buddha achieved awakening! Why on earth would he have a problem with translators using female pronouns?

SarathW
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by SarathW » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:08 pm

I think this post should be posted in the politics forum, not in General Theravada.
Then we can avoid it if we do not want to participate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm
inequality is part of the difficulty inherent in existence
:goodpost:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:53 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm
Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
:thumbsup: Good point. I also liked the breezy assurance of "Women are fine..." Our mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, Dhammadinna, Upasika Kee Nanayon, Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, etc: They've passed the Dylan test, so you're OK to take it slowly, brothers...
I don't approve of all women individually. Not Theresa May or Hillary Clinton, for sure.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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