keep liberalism out of buddhism

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dylanj
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keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:00 am

Image

women are fine but to grasp at one's gender & take personally the disparity between genders that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

i'm pretty sure the buddha used male pronouns to refer to people at large as is reflected in the pali & to change that in the name of "female empowerment" is a mistake imho. do these people think he made a poor choice of words?

the suffering of women would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:03 am

Image
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:05 am

western buddhism is mostly crap i guess

we all know buddhism is dying as the buddha taught

i have had the thought that maybe like the sun, the dhamma rises in the east & goes to the west to cease
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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cappuccino
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 pm

be careful not to slander an entire direction of the earth!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:12 pm

post the pāḷi so others may confirm. i have seen other verses where the buddha speaks of a man or a woman.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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TamHanhHi
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by TamHanhHi » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Candābhattheravatthu (Source)
Candaṃva vimalaṃ suddhaṃ,
vippasannamanāvilaṃ;
Nandībhavaparikkhīṇaṃ,
tamahaṃ brūmi brāhmaṇaṃ.

Bhante Buddharakhita's English translation does not include any feminine pronouns, but I can't read Pali anyway so I can't say if Pali is like this or it's a translation style :shrug:

I do know that different translations of the Metta Sutta sometimes say "one" instead of "he".
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."—AN 5.38 :candle:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 pm

neither can i. would be prudent to know if there are gender neutral pronouns in this language or if masculine is used neutrally, like it is in romance languages
i agree with dont cuck yourself to the world's inferior or disproportionate treatment of women, thus subjugating yourself to womanhood. if anyone would rush to the defense of women in this way (or to bash them) they would do well to read soma sutta or the discourse on identity
i dont really agree with dylan's tone. western buddhism has its challenges but is not crap. to the extent that it contains actual buddhadhamma it is pure and bright. it should be held to high esteem and efforts made to improve it rather than denigrate it.
if it does turn out the buddha was referring to man when he said this does it still apply to women? we can maintain a conservative approach to translating texts while recognizing dhamma as dhamma
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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DooDoot
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 pm

TamHanhHi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 pm
Candābhattheravatthu (Source)
Candaṃva vimalaṃ suddhaṃ,
vippasannamanāvilaṃ;
Nandībhavaparikkhīṇaṃ,
tamahaṃ brūmi brāhmaṇaṃ.
It seems the key term here is brāhmaṇa & whether it can be gender neutral? Are there any places in the suttas, such as in the Therīgāthā, where an arahant bhikkhuni is referred to as 'brāhmaṇa'? :shrug:

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm

Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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cappuccino
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm

inequality is part of the difficulty inherent in existence

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Sam Vara
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm
Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
:thumbsup: Good point. I also liked the breezy assurance of "Women are fine..." Our mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, Dhammadinna, Upasika Kee Nanayon, Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, etc: They've passed the Dylan test, so you're OK to take it slowly, brothers...

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by BasementBuddhist » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:34 pm

Just because the world is filled with ignorance, and this ignorance causes women to be seen as inferior, doesn't mean we should just go along with the idea. We are seeking to remove ignorance, not submit to it.

Also, if the core message of the text isn't lost, then why does it matter if we use he or she? The Buddha said that women are just as capable of achieving enlightenment as men. The woman who raised the Buddha achieved awakening! Why on earth would he have a problem with translators using female pronouns?

SarathW
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by SarathW » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:08 pm

I think this post should be posted in the politics forum, not in General Theravada.
Then we can avoid it if we do not want to participate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm
inequality is part of the difficulty inherent in existence
:goodpost:
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:53 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm
Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
:thumbsup: Good point. I also liked the breezy assurance of "Women are fine..." Our mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, Dhammadinna, Upasika Kee Nanayon, Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, etc: They've passed the Dylan test, so you're OK to take it slowly, brothers...
I don't approve of all women individually. Not Theresa May or Hillary Clinton, for sure.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:54 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm
Hi Dylan. I replaced the word Women with Black people. Interesting eh.
Black people are fine but to grasp at one's race & take personally the disparity between races that will inevitably arise due to the instability of the world is to be enmeshed in identity

The suffering of black people would be more alleviated by them accepting that society forces them into a submissive role by & large as opposed to trying to change the whole darn world
Yes it still applies.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:57 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 pm
neither can i. would be prudent to know if there are gender neutral pronouns in this language or if masculine is used neutrally, like it is in romance languages
i agree with dont cuck yourself to the world's inferior or disproportionate treatment of women, thus subjugating yourself to womanhood. if anyone would rush to the defense of women in this way (or to bash them) they would do well to read soma sutta or the discourse on identity
i dont really agree with dylan's tone. western buddhism has its challenges but is not crap. to the extent that it contains actual buddhadhamma it is pure and bright. it should be held to high esteem and efforts made to improve it rather than denigrate it.
if it does turn out the buddha was referring to man when he said this does it still apply to women? we can maintain a conservative approach to translating texts while recognizing dhamma as dhamma
yes there are gender neutral pronouns, gramatically pali has a whole neuter gender

to the extent that western buddhism contains wrong views & the distortion of the dhamma it is impure & evil

& it is a simple fact, I think, that this is the greater portion of Buddhism in the west.

of course what good there is is good, i don't say it's all utterly bad & fruitless...i am a buddhist in the west after all
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by LotusTara3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:18 pm

I am a feminist and a beginner Buddhist and I am not for changing the texts in any way. I have not heard of liberals wanting to change the texts using feminine pronouns. Even though Buddha taught in the time of sexism where women where not even seen as the same species as men, they and the Nagas where seen as an inferior species.
I would not want to change the texts, as it is a reminder of how humanity has evolved to accept women as equal since then. If you are sexist then of course you would not want to change the male gender pronouns because it suits you; but I think if Buddha where here today he would address more women in the texts as equal.

How does liberalism fit in with this and where are these feminists who want to change world religions and texts. I think feminists have better things to fight over like equal pay, not being sexually harrassed, or even confronting laws that seek to control our reproductive rights.
I do not want to get political but this seems like you are putting women down in their attitudes towards religion.

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cappuccino
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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:20 pm

racism is a fact of Samsara

what can you do?

except transcend Samsara

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Re: keep liberalism out of buddhism

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:23 pm

Pseudoliberalism has caused always terrible things in history. If it could find roots it caused the hole generations afterwards to be left of all useful teachers and rafts. If it had not wiped out all useful authorities, Marxism has caused it's twin brother, national socialism give rise.

Don't you, both extrems, think that it would be wiser to follow the elders and to try to understand Ajahn Chahs simile proper rather to childish experiment and fall on ones nose?:
http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html wrote:Peels & Husks

I'll give you a simple comparison. Suppose you've bought a banana or a coconut in the market and you walk along carrying it. Someone asks you, "Why did you buy the banana?"

"I bought it to eat it."

"But do you have to eat the peel, too?"

"No."

"I don't believe you. If you're not going to eat the peel, why are you carrying it too?"

Or suppose you're carrying a coconut:

"Why are you carrying the coconut?"

"I'm carrying it home to make a curry."

"And you're going to curry the husk too?"

"No."

"Then why are you carrying it?"

So. How are you going to answer his question?

Through desire. If there's no desire, you can't give rise to ingenuity, to discernment.

That's the way it is as we make an effort in our meditation. Even though we do this through letting go, it's like the banana or the coconut: Why are you carrying the peel or the husk? Because the time hasn't come yet to throw it away. It's still protecting the inner flesh. The time hasn't come yet to throw it away, so you hold onto it for the time being.

The same with our practice: Suppositions and release have to be mixed together, just as the coconut has a husk mixed together with a shell and the flesh, so you carry them all together. If they accuse us of eating the coconut husk, so what? We know what we're doing.
You know... most thinking that they have understood this actually thinking of the husk are the fruits and are even more worse than those not understanding higher teachings at all.

Let those believe in pseudoliberalism as base first make their painful experiances. It not so that others could chance those with determined destination and in these days one is really gifted if no more able to miss the middle path with it's probably painful sacrifices needed, since not all people might have always an easy to follow into unknow territory leaded by faith and confidence.

It's all not for sure aside of given causes will have their effects if not quickly striving for the other shore rather to put to much of left merits into things subject of decay.

Does anyone find it inspiring seeing monks doing politics for those they might not out of reason feel improper obigated? What ever side of extreme and aside of the tradition of the noble ones might be? Grasping after mother skirt or asking for father protection... that is neither for male nor for female so called well gone, well following proper, isn't it. And it's because of this that a caravan gets easy object and attracts theves of both extrems, to gain a win out of certain circumsatances.

Don't forget, it's really not easy for both, even like ever for woman, but in putting support not by giving the leaders rightous leaders, Theras of old, strength, how does one think that they could prepare possible ways for all childs is steady required to get another sheep from eating the grass away which had covered not out of reason.

Given that all places on internet are full of politic and wordily affairs, don't you think that it would be good to sign low topics general as such openly and make use of less given places proper?

To encourage people like your leader here in such ways, that might inspire him as well to make an end of carring for his kind/children in ways binding them to Samsara. That is what is meant by children who really repay the goodness received from their parents and not by means of opposing in spheres they really not understand for now.

Most have no idea of the goodness and forgiviness they receive from those they are objects of their fight agains the mirror of their old deeds.

At least someone realizing his/her inproper gainings, could nevertheless confess it and hand the gained objects to a proper acting Sangha making later best and proper use, if possible, of it.

Mudita with all of your possibilities and good sacrifices done in the past and now.

Penetrating form first is very importand before switching to the path beyond. Such does not lead to rejecting minds objects on a five sense leves, but to stopp practicing making chairs by polishing the barkwood of trees in the forest. Of course the will be those impressed by such practice... but one needs painfully cut defilements down first and trust in those with old transmitted skills and ways how to learn them.

It's enough to have a "liberal" gender and wiser then the Theras place, don't you think it's not better to give no food into a matter that simply belongs to the monastic Sanghas good or bad choices to approach you here as Children? It's not you business at all but that of you parents on elders to steer the old raft wisely and better you focus on putting into making merits rather then defend of what might be totally not yours, having not fallen to you and your responsibility where you are in a relation. And no, you are not an equal partner, "friend"... homie..., what ever "modern" approach leaders of slaves usually advertise, in regard of your parents and those worthy of respect.

Don't let the good objects of devotion be destroyed in you heart by seeking refuge in pulling the authorities down on your defilements current level.

Woman who are capable, like man, have no problems to fix their own problems with focus on their own heart rather to give defilments and pacanca food, since they will not stop at any level, even the whole world is made plane an equal outwardly.

Think about it if they stop if having got the desired food.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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