Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

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manas
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Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by manas » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:41 pm

Those who can only see the bad in Trump, will probably not acknowledge this, but it appears his strategy of 'talking tough' has worked; for the first time, Kim Jong Un seems to be backing down. Trump might just be about to succeed, where successive other U.S. administrations have failed. If a bit of harsh speech ends up preventing real conflict and loss of life, it's not such a bad thing, imo.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/no ... 4z353.html
Last edited by manas on Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:56 pm

manas wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:41 pm
Those who can only see the bad in Trump, will probably not acknowledge this, but it appears his strategy of 'talking tough' has worked; they are backing down. Has Trump just succeeded, where successive other U.S. administrations have failed? If so, he at least deserves some credit this time.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/no ... 4z353.html
I agree; it's remarkable. Of course, those who only see the bad in Trump will attribute the latest developments to other factors. It will be pressure from the Chinese, or the fruition of some long-term strategy that Obama initiated, or somesuch. But people were saying last year that Trump's irresponsible tweets and tough talking were driving the world to the point of armageddon. This has not happened, and in fact the world appears to be a slightly safer place now.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by manas » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:08 pm

Perhaps it takes one narcissist, to know how to get under the skin of another? We all know Trump has some serious flaws in his character, however, it's achieving positive results for one's country that matters most in a leader, is it not? To sum up: he's got flaws, but he gets results.
Last edited by manas on Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
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attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:14 pm

manas wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:08 pm
Perhaps it takes one narcissist, to know how to get under the skin of another. We all know Trump has some serious flaws in his character, however, it's achieving positive results for one's country that matters most in a leader, is it not? To sum up, he's got flaws, but he gets results.
Indeed. It's the famous Machiavellian position that we don't need our political leaders to have the civic and personal virtues that we seek to cultivate in ourselves and admire in our immediate neighbours. We need them to be effective, and that often means being ruthless and unprincipled. Although we might value tolerance, friendliness, compassion and respect, a national leader with those qualities too highly developed will lead their country into trouble.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by manas » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:22 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:14 pm


Indeed. It's the famous Machiavellian position that we don't need our political leaders to have the civic and personal virtues that we seek to cultivate in ourselves and admire in our immediate neighbours. We need them to be effective, and that often means being ruthless and unprincipled. Although we might value tolerance, friendliness, compassion and respect, a national leader with those qualities too highly developed will lead their country into trouble.
i'm coming around to a similar position also. We all know that being 'too nice' in life, often ends up having other people step all over you. When it comes to something as important as national security, and putting the interests of one's own country and it's citizens first - all leaders should do that surely - perhaps the 'stongman' type of leader, is exactly what one should want.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
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attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:57 pm

Greetings,

All the big talk by US & North Korea is really just a bit of kabuki theatre to throw the media off the scent. Meanwhile, they've been working behind the scenes on how to liberate North Korea from formerly entrenched US interference.

"Dotard".... "rocket man".... :lol:

But to the points made above, yes, Trump does get results.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:14 pm

How has it worked? They have a working ICBM and very probably a warhead small enough to sit on top of it. While they make their design more sophisticated they are buying time ..

They will leverage their willingness to talk to have some sanctions lifted (especially restore trade with China) .. use the lifting of sanctions to import machinery to improve their N-weapons program ..

S. Korea, Japan remains within easy reach of N. Korea. Deeply unsettling situation.



Exactly a decade ago we were celebrating N. Korea's "disarmament"
North Korea on Friday destroyed a water cooling tower at a facility where officials acknowledge they extracted plutonium to build nuclear weapons, CNN's Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour reported from the scene.

The massive implosion, which came at about 5pm local time Friday at the Yongbyon facility, was intended to be a powerful public symbol of a move to end nuclear activities by the Communist nation once branded a member of an "axis of evil" by U.S. President George W. Bush.

The destruction of the highly visible symbol of North Korea's long-secret nuclear program came just a day after the country released details of its program.

"They fired a warning flare and then in three minutes the whole thing came tumbling down in a massive cloud of smoke," Amanpour said.
"There was a moment of stunned silence as the magnitude of what had happened sunk in," Amanpour said.

U.S. State Department officials and observers from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) watched from a reviewing stand on a ridge about 1,000 yards away, she said.

"This is a very significant disablement step," the U.S. envoy to North Korea, Sung Kim, said.
CNN June 27, 2008
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:20 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:14 pm
manas wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:08 pm
Perhaps it takes one narcissist, to know how to get under the skin of another. We all know Trump has some serious flaws in his character, however, it's achieving positive results for one's country that matters most in a leader, is it not? To sum up, he's got flaws, but he gets results.
Indeed. It's the famous Machiavellian position that we don't need our political leaders to have the civic and personal virtues that we seek to cultivate in ourselves and admire in our immediate neighbours. We need them to be effective, and that often means being ruthless and unprincipled. Although we might value tolerance, friendliness, compassion and respect, a national leader with those qualities too highly developed will lead their country into trouble.
Yeah, this makes sense.....especially within the context of a buddhist forum. This seems to resonate really well with what the buddha taught....or....wait a minute.....does it?
chownah

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by alan » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:37 am

Bullsh*t.
He knew an attack on America would result in total destruction for his country.
Had no other choice.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 am

Remember fellows:

If a bad outcome can possibly be attributed to Trump, it must be. If a good outcome can possibly be attributed to anyone but Trump, it must be.

Asymmetric interpretation is central to supporting an uncharitable opinion.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:19 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:20 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:14 pm


Indeed. It's the famous Machiavellian position that we don't need our political leaders to have the civic and personal virtues that we seek to cultivate in ourselves and admire in our immediate neighbours. We need them to be effective, and that often means being ruthless and unprincipled. Although we might value tolerance, friendliness, compassion and respect, a national leader with those qualities too highly developed will lead their country into trouble.
Yeah, this makes sense.....especially within the context of a buddhist forum. This seems to resonate really well with what the buddha taught....or....wait a minute.....does it?
chownah
It "makes sense", in that it is what Machiavelli said in Il Principe, and Trump seems to exemplify it. It makes sense within a Buddhist forum, in that there would appear to be no impediment among Buddhists to understanding it. It doesn't "resonate really well" with what the Buddha said, in that any leader following much of Machiavelli's advice (particularly that relating to "criminal virtue") would be breaking lay precepts. Machiavelli was at odds with the Christian idealists of his time, and would be at odds with Buddhist principles as well, in so far as we can extrapolate.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by robertk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:10 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 am
Remember fellows:

If a bad outcome can possibly be attributed to Trump, it must be. If a good outcome can possibly be attributed to anyone but Trump, it must be.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :smile:

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:31 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 am
Remember fellows:

If a bad outcome can possibly be attributed to Trump, it must be. If a good outcome can possibly be attributed to anyone but Trump, it must be.

Asymmetric interpretation is central to supporting an uncharitable opinion.
Your presenting just this much is an asymmetric presentation of what is going on and if just what you have said is taken to heart without completing the symmetry then it will support an uncharitable opinion. What is needed to complete the symmetry is that for trump and his followers If a bad outcome can possibly be attributed to the opposition, it must be. If a good outcome can possibly be attributed to Trump, it must be.
Given the uncertainty about what is happening vis a vis north korea I don't think that either of these apply because it is not certain that anything substantial has changed recently....see no=mind's post......at this point it's just wishful thinking.
chownah

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Kamran » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:16 am

It is different what politicians say in public and what they said privately.

Trump talks tough to the camera but he and his military advisers are sending secret messages to N.Korea, Iran, etc begging them and asking for deals.

Because its not tough talk but tough action that these leaders care about.

These leaders like in N.Korea and Iran are people that face frequent assassination attempts, coups, and life and death power struggles from their own family members, regime insiders, and opposition groups - they are not going to be afraid of Trump.
"Silence gives answers"

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:30 am

The USA has murdered & destroyed the lives of millions of innocent people in foreign nations since 9/11. North Korea have not harmed any other nation. If nuclear weapons are wrong, why not threaten Pakistan, India, Israel & the other nations with nuclear weapons. Why do not destroy all nuclear weapons of USA China, UK, France & Russia? The North Korea thing is just a puppet show theater to distract people from the US supplying & training of their mercenaries called 'Al Qaeda' who murder innocent people in Libya, Iraq & Syria. Like 9/11, people will forget North Korea as quickly as it became a topic of conversation & move to the next political non-sense like Iran. While Trump & friends loot the US Treasury, the TV makes advertising about war theater; similar to the daily non-sense in the Israeli news media that pops into my computer everyday. Read Haaretz one or twice and it spams your computer forever. Everyday, Haaretz publishes this type of non-sense; just like the US media. I am amazed how people take so seriously this fabricated war mongering like we are living in the 1800s.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by manas » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:30 am
The USA has murdered & destroyed the lives of millions of innocent people in foreign nations since 9/11. North Korea have not harmed any other nation. If nuclear weapons are wrong, why not threaten Pakistan, India, Israel & the other nations with nuclear weapons. Why do not destroy all nuclear weapons of USA China, UK, France & Russia? The North Korea thing is just a puppet show theater to distract people from the US supplying & training of their mercenaries called 'Al Qaeda' who murder innocent people in Libya, Iraq & Syria. Like 9/11, people will forget North Korea as quickly as it became a topic of conversation & move to the next political non-sense like Iran. While Trump & friends loot the US Treasury, the TV makes advertising about war theater; similar to the daily non-sense in the Israeli news media that pops into my computer everyday. Read Haaretz one or twice and it spams your computer forever. Everyday, Haaretz publishes this type of non-sense; just like the US media. I am amazed how people take so seriously this fabricated war mongering like we are living in the 1800s.
I agree that targeting Nth Korea for sanctions (who have not actually attacked the U.S.) while supporting Israel, Saudi Arabia and many other equally heinous regimes, is grossly hypocritical. I'm just glad that it appears, a peaceful resolution of a crisis that might have escalated into a war in that region, seems to be likely.
I wish to add that, when I wrote the original post, I forgot about Trump's recent decision to recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli Capital. That decision is so utterly deplorable and unfair on the Palestinians, that I'm now questioning whether I want to get involved in this subject...I just gave praise to the man who made that decision re Jerusalem; makes me feel sick, because I've long followed the story of the long-suffering Palestinian People, and Trump's decision regarding that was a real kick in the guts for them.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

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manas
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by manas » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:50 pm

I'[m realizing how much more complex this situation is, I think I gave Trump too much credit.
Sometimes I forget that appearances are so often different from reality.
It could well be that many of the 'conflicts' in the world, are utilized as 'theatre for the masses', to keep us rabble busy thinking the enemy is 'out there' (rather than, 'among us, and with the ability to make more money in one day, than most of us will in an entire lifetime') so these so-called 'masters', the very wealthiest in the world, can keep getting away with financially screwing the other 99.99% of us.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Kamran » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:18 pm

See below article from yesterday:

N. Korea and Iran would give up arms tomorrow if US and Europe give up their weapons.

"Iran calls on US and Europe to scrap Nuclear Arms and Missiles"
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/iran-ca ... siles.html

What the Americans and Europeans really want is to keep their own Nuclear Arsenal while taking away other countries ability to defend themselves.

They just want to be free to do to Iran and N. Korea what they did to Iraq, and what they are still doing to the Palestinians.

But they can't. That's the "problem".
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

Circle5
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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Circle5 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:37 pm

Kamran wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:18 pm
See below article from yesterday:

N. Korea and Iran would give up arms tomorrow if US and Europe give up their weapons.

"Iran calls on US and Europe to scrap Nuclear Arms and Missiles"
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/iran-ca ... siles.html

What the Americans and Europeans really want is to keep their own Nuclear Arsenal while taking away other countries ability to defend themselves.

They just want to be free to do to Iran and N. Korea what they did to Iraq, and what they are still doing to the Palestinians.

But they can't. That's the "problem".
"ability to defend themselves" :juggling:

It's rather the ability to defent gruesomely corrupt and authoritarian dictatorships with almost no popular support. Opressive regimes willing to do anything it takes to stay forever in power, against the will of their people.

As for why are others not allowed to have them: Because there would be a volatile and dangerous world is everyone would have nuclear weapons. Also, it would lower the strenght of the 5 big powers who, like it or not, are generally much more responsible than lifetime dictators like Sadam or Kim or the iranian Ayatolah or Gadaffi.

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Re: Trump's tough stance on Nth Korea appears to have worked

Post by Kamran » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:39 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:37 pm
Kamran wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:18 pm
See below article from yesterday:

N. Korea and Iran would give up arms tomorrow if US and Europe give up their weapons.

"Iran calls on US and Europe to scrap Nuclear Arms and Missiles"
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/iran-ca ... siles.html

What the Americans and Europeans really want is to keep their own Nuclear Arsenal while taking away other countries ability to defend themselves.

They just want to be free to do to Iran and N. Korea what they did to Iraq, and what they are still doing to the Palestinians.

But they can't. That's the "problem".
"ability to defend themselves" :juggling:

It's rather the ability to defent gruesomely corrupt and authoritarian dictatorships with almost no popular support. Opressive regimes willing to do anything it takes to stay forever in power, against the will of their people.

As for why are others not allowed to have them: Because there would be a volatile and dangerous world is everyone would have nuclear weapons. Also, it would lower the strenght of the 5 big powers who, like it or not, are generally much more responsible than lifetime dictators like Sadam or Kim or the iranian Ayatolah or Gadaffi.
The US President openly admires the dictators, like N. Koreas, and is on record asking why he can't use Nuclear Weapons.

The only thing stopping Americans from more mass murder, like the 500,000 they killed in Iraq, is the deterrent capability of other countries.

When the Americans were the only country to have the bomb they did not hesitate to use it.

It is a racist lie that the "5 Powers" are more responsible.

This is what Trump said on Camera the other day:

"He's now president for life. President for life. No, he's great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot some day."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/politics ... index.html
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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