Americans will never give up their guns.

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
dhamma follower
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by dhamma follower » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:32 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:49 pm
dhamma follower wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:44 pm
Hi No-mind,
I think you skipped over the bit where it said Current Events and Politics sub forum :smile: .. it is the only sort of non-Buddhist part of this forum (and the only one you can opt out of).


Could you please show me where it is this part in the introduction of this sub forum? I don't see it. On the contrary, its description goes like this:
A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
What did you expect the description to be .. "This is the only part of the forum where you can discuss about Trump's golden shower and related stories" :? This is the only part of the forum where you can discuss about Trump's golden shower and related stories.


The point is that the Dhamma is still the guilding line in whatever being discussed here. You, on the other hand, seem to have suggested that this is a sub forum where the Dhammic perspectives don't matter.
Yes of course I am a Buddhist .. I would spare no enemy who threatened the Dhamma .. that kind of Buddhist


It would be good to examine whether the Dhamma you protect is the same than the Buddha's. From what you said here, I don't think so.

Brgds,

D.F

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:38 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:32 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:35 pm
I would spare no enemy who threatened the Dhamma
/.../
If I lived in a lonely house .. if a meth head broke in and threatened my child .. I would blow his brains out with a shotgun. It would keep me in a more neutral state than any harm to my child.
You sure don't sound like someone who needs the Dhamma. Why defend something one doesn't actually need ...
Do people who need the Dhamma come in specific size and shape? I promote self defense .. violent self defense if needed (as last resort of course)

How does that not accord with the Dhamma?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

alfa
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alfa » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:06 am

I think Buddhists tend to go to an extreme. They believe that if you aren't pacifist, you're a war monger.

There is a middle way. You don't have to be aggressive or pacifist. You can be nonviolent (the rule) and yet believe in self-defense (the exception). No contradiction.

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:10 am

alfa wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:06 am
I think Buddhists tend to go to an extreme. They believe that if you aren't pacifist, you're a war monger.

There is a middle way. You don't have to be aggressive or pacifist. You can be nonviolent (the rule) and yet believe in self-defense (the exception). No contradiction.
What you mean is western convert Buddhists tend to go on extreme .. native Buddhists have a pretty bloody history of killing and war and not being frazzled by it.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

denise
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by denise » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:39 am


alfa
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alfa » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:29 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:10 am
alfa wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:06 am
I think Buddhists tend to go to an extreme. They believe that if you aren't pacifist, you're a war monger.

There is a middle way. You don't have to be aggressive or pacifist. You can be nonviolent (the rule) and yet believe in self-defense (the exception). No contradiction.
What you mean is western convert Buddhists tend to go on extreme .. native Buddhists have a pretty bloody history of killing and war and not being frazzled by it.

:namaste:
Are native hindus and buddhists any better? Remember the gandhians? Following an extreme form of nonviolence even when human lives are in danger ... this is something I can't approve. But this is normal even among native Buddhists and Hindus, not just converts.

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:44 am

alfa wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:29 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:10 am
alfa wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:06 am
I think Buddhists tend to go to an extreme. They believe that if you aren't pacifist, you're a war monger.

There is a middle way. You don't have to be aggressive or pacifist. You can be nonviolent (the rule) and yet believe in self-defense (the exception). No contradiction.
What you mean is western convert Buddhists tend to go on extreme .. native Buddhists have a pretty bloody history of killing and war and not being frazzled by it.

:namaste:
Are native hindus and buddhists any better? Remember the gandhians? Following an extreme form of nonviolence even when human lives are in danger ... this is something I can't approve. But this is normal even among native Buddhists and Hindus, not just converts.
Native Buddhists are quite violent or at least as violent as the next man (with exception of Tibetan Buddhists who did not generate enough taxes to maintain any army leading to being overrun by China in 1951)

Gandhians were peaceful .. good point. But we got rid of them soon. 1947 got independence 1962 got socked on nose by China due to being Gandhian 1971 we split Pakistan in two .. so in 20 years we came to our senses.

Hindus were a martial race and will remain so (look at all the kings constantly fighting in Ramayana and Mahabharata) .. my greatest regret in life remains that I was unable to join the army and I know same is true for many other young men.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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manas
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by manas » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:03 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:35 pm




A more technical answer - There is no 'Bad' and 'Good' Karma. There is only 'Karma'. The best Karma for me/you, would be the one that succeeds in keeping me/you in a neutral (devoid of emotional upsurges) state of mind for as long as is possible (do not ask for sutta references .. it is not from suttas)


:namaste:
You're darn right your point of view here, isn't from the suttas. Having enjoyed previous posts of yours, I find what you write here concerning. When it comes to dhamma / dharma, whether from the Buddhist or the Hindu side of the fence, we ought not to twist the doctrine to justify our own personal position.

in goodwill :anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:03 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:35 pm




A more technical answer - There is no 'Bad' and 'Good' Karma. There is only 'Karma'. The best Karma for me/you, would be the one that succeeds in keeping me/you in a neutral (devoid of emotional upsurges) state of mind for as long as is possible (do not ask for sutta references .. it is not from suttas)


:namaste:
You're darn right your point of view here, isn't from the suttas. Having enjoyed previous posts of yours, I find what you write here concerning. When it comes to dhamma / dharma, whether from the Buddhist or the Hindu side of the fence, we ought not to twist the doctrine to justify our own personal position.

in goodwill :anjali:
The entire Bhagvad Gita is about Krishna coaxing Arjuna to kill his cousin brothers and grand uncle (of whom Arjuna was very fond). Hindu notion of Karma is different and only reason I mention it is because this is Current Events and News section.

To take up arms to combat Adharma is the sacred duty of a Dharmic person. As I said previously, being a Hin-Budd I am not subject to several constraints that Buddhists are.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Kim OHara
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:11 pm

In case this hasn't come your way ...
Walk Out of School to Demand Safer Gun Laws

On March 14, 2018, a Wednesday, there will be a national school walkout for gun reform. It is being led by Women’s March Youth Empower, an initiative by the folks who organized the Women’s March. The call is for students, parents, teachers and allies to take part in the walkout for 17 minutes at 10 a.m. across every time zone.

Why should you walk out? Because screaming on Twitter isn’t enough. Because physical, bodies-on-the-streets motion has worked before. ...
https://offspring.lifehacker.com/walk-o ... 53578?IR=T
or FB event page in case that's better - https://www.facebook.com/events/1767175080245694/

:namaste:
Kim

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DooDoot
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:39 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 pm
The entire Bhagvad Gita is about Krishna coaxing Arjuna to kill his cousin brothers and grand uncle (of whom Arjuna was very fond). Hindu notion of Karma is different and only reason I mention it is because this is Current Events and News section.
Indeed. Refer to the Kalaka Sutta, which explains how a Tathagata views the ignorance of other religions.
No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 pm
To take up arms to combat Adharma is the sacred duty of a Dharmic person. As I said previously, being a Hin-Budd I am not subject to several constraints that Buddhists are.
'Dharma' is a word used universally among Indian religions. Most simplistically 'dharma' means 'duty according to law'. Yet what is dharma (duty & law) differs among the Indian religions, which is why Buddhism is called 'Buddha-Dhamma' or the Dhamma of the Buddha. Again, refer to the Kalaka Sutta, which explains how a Tathagata views the ignorance of other religions, such as Hinduism. In Buddha-Dhamma, it is obviously not rocket science to understand to take up arms to combat Adharma is not the sacred duty of a Dhammic person. The Buddha taught the warrior in battle is reborn in animal womb & hell.
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:10 am
What you mean is western convert Buddhists tend to go on extreme .. native Buddhists have a pretty bloody history of killing and war and not being frazzled by it.
Religions of various societies are generally adopted by kings & ruling classes. For example, Christianity existed for 300 years, persecuted by the Roman Empire, but suddenly, in 380AD, was made the official religion of Rome. Or, at some point between 740 and 920 CE, the Khazar royalty and nobility appear to have converted to Judaism. In India, Buddhism flourished under the sponsorship Ashoka but declined under later rulers. The British battled between Catholicism & Protestantism (because Henry VIII wanted to divorce rather than behead his wives) until Protestantism prevailed when backed by the commercial interests. Thus, the majority peoples of nations generally are not religious practitioners but merely ordinary people following the State Religion; including State Religions such as Nazism, Apartheid, Zionism, Cultural Marxism, Hollywood, Consumerism & American Exceptionalism.

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:39 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 pm
The entire Bhagvad Gita is about Krishna coaxing Arjuna to kill his cousin brothers and grand uncle (of whom Arjuna was very fond). Hindu notion of Karma is different and only reason I mention it is because this is Current Events and News section.
Indeed. Refer to the Kalaka Sutta, which explains how a Tathagata views the ignorance of other religions.
No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 pm
To take up arms to combat Adharma is the sacred duty of a Dharmic person. As I said previously, being a Hin-Budd I am not subject to several constraints that Buddhists are.
'Dharma' is a word used universally among Indian religions. Most simplistically 'dharma' means 'duty according to law'. Yet what is dharma (duty & law) differs among the Indian religions, which is why Buddhism is called 'Buddha-Dhamma' or the Dhamma of the Buddha. Again, refer to the Kalaka Sutta, which explains how a Tathagata views the ignorance of other religions, such as Hinduism. In Buddha-Dhamma, it is obviously not rocket science to understand to take up arms to combat Adharma is not the sacred duty of a Dhammic person. The Buddha taught the warrior in battle is reborn in animal womb & hell.

Do you realize that if what you wrote was actually practiced .. if in 2010 every soldier in NATO, Russia and Iran became a changed person who would not kill then ISIS would be ruling us today?

If the truck driver in Nice who ran over people was not shot dead he would have gone on to create more havoc? If the Las Vegas concert shooter was not shot dead .. he would have killed more people.

Note what I wrote .. to use violence in self defense only .. not any other reason.
Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

The Parable of the Saw https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
This is meant for monks not laity.

Would not respond to this line of conversation any more because it is fruitless.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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DooDoot
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:34 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am
Do you realize that if what you wrote was actually practiced .. if in 2010 every soldier in NATO, Russia and Iran became a changed person who would not kill then ISIS would be ruling us today?
ISIS work for NATO. Regardless, based on the reality of history, the majority of the people of the earth will never be truly religious.
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am
If the truck driver in Nice who ran over people was not shot dead he would have gone on to create more havoc? If the Las Vegas concert shooter was not shot dead .. he would have killed more people.
If the truck driver or all people in Las Vegas were religious, they would not kill people.
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am
Note what I wrote .. to use violence in self defense only .. not any other reason. Would not respond to this line of conversation any more because it is fruitless.
You seem to write Hinduism of the Gita.

Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pilgrim
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by pilgrim » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 am

Native Buddhists are not a homogeneous bloc. There are those born into a Buddhist culture and convert Buddhists too and all sorts in between.

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No_Mind
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:34 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am
Do you realize that if what you wrote was actually practiced .. if in 2010 every soldier in NATO, Russia and Iran became a changed person who would not kill then ISIS would be ruling us today?
ISIS work for NATO. Regardless, based on the reality of history, the majority of the people of the earth will never be truly religious.
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 am
If the truck driver in Nice who ran over people was not shot dead he would have gone on to create more havoc? If the Las Vegas concert shooter was not shot dead .. he would have killed more people.
If the truck driver or all people in Las Vegas were religious, they would not kill people.
And until all men with diabolical intentions gave up their savage tendencies and became religious (I guess you mean non-violent, compassionate, virtuous by religious) we should go on being killed by random mad men with guns and knives and trucks and bombs ..?

Do you even read what you are writing?

The superciliousness that some western Buddhists display is the reason why Buddhism is stuck at 0.3% in the West.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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