Americans will never give up their guns.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:32 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:59 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:39 am
I read something pertinent elsewhere, I'll reproduce it here:
:goodpost:
Pseudobabble, binocular,

So do you agree with that argument or no?

I've seen some people doing open-carry, where they are armed with a pistol in a holster or between their body and their belt on their waist (legal in many states, including my state).
Here is a conversation I had with one of them:

Me: "Is the gun loaded?"
Open-carry dude: "yes, what's the use of a gun that is unloaded?"
Me: "aren't you concerned that it might go off?"
OC: "guns don't go off without someone pulling the trigger"
Me: "yes, but I see the hammer is pulled back, one slight pressure and it could go off?"
OC: "I have the safety on"
Me: "have you ever had to use it in self-defense?"
OC: "No, but . . . . and then answers as above quoted by Pseudobabble.

Hello David,

Basically I agree. The two axes of my decision-making framework are probability of outcome and severity of outcome. Under that decision-making framework, I would own a gun if in a country where that was legal.

Perhaps OC in the conversation above is a little too paranoid, I don't know. If it was me I'd probably keep the gun un-cocked, safety on, loaded, and concealed. No need to wave it around in the open, the thing is for self-defense, not a fashion statement.
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"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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binocular
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:42 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 am
Yep, and by alan's way of thinking, its probably ok to make it out of all those 'God Dam idiots who are stupid as Hell', and who don't deserve any attempt to understand their position.
Puts a whole new spin on "You are what you eat".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:14 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Interesting points you made about the availability of guns in your country and also the stakes involved. And I think this is why the rest of the world tends to think Americans are a bunch of gun nuts who can't see logically that it's so simple as just removing the guns and the problem will be solved. It's not just how much it's ingrained in American culture, but also just how difficult it would be to eliminate all of the existing guns, some 300 million + in the U.S., enough for every man, woman, child and infant in the U.S. And changing the laws are extremely difficult to do in the U.S.
And to be fair, it's not just about American culture, but about gun culture as such, in the sense that owning guns and being ready to use them requires ongoing training and maintenance. Without regular, ongoing training in shooting at targets, one cannot hope to make much use of one's gun should the need for doing so arise. And the gun must be maintained, cleaned regularly. That could amount to a couple of hours per week, plus the time to drive to the shooting range, and the time spent thinking about all this. Seems like quite a bit of time spent on guns altogether, so it makes sense to assume that the impact of gun culture as such can be considerable as well.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Virgo
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Virgo » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:32 am
Hello David,

Basically I agree. The two axes of my decision-making framework are probability of outcome and severity of outcome. Under that decision-making framework, I would own a gun if in a country where that was legal.
What you need is more CCTV in London, and stronger sentences for all the criminals.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:32 am
Perhaps OC in the conversation above is a little too paranoid, I don't know. If it was me I'd probably keep the gun un-cocked, safety on, loaded, and concealed. No need to wave it around in the open, the thing is for self-defense, not a fashion statement.
The way he is acting is the logical conclusion of the logic you are using. When you actually do live in a country like the US with guns everywhere and carry one yourself for protection, you become even more paranoid, and then you want to display it for all the criminals -- and it is even better if it is cocked.

It's ridiculous.

Guns banned, more police presence, more CCTV, stronger sentences, that is the way.

Kevin

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manas
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by manas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:36 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:32 am


Guns banned, more police presence, more CCTV, stronger sentences, that is the way.

Kevin
Hi Kevin, I share your distaste for guns, however the first three of your proposals are some of the justifications for why the Second Amendment (in the U.S.) is important. Do you really trust the State that much? http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

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Virgo
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Virgo » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:44 pm

manas wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:36 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm

Guns banned, more police presence, more CCTV, stronger sentences, that is the way.

Kevin
Hi Kevin, I share your distaste for guns, however the first three of your proposals are some of the justifications for why the Second Amendment (in the U.S.) is important. Do you really trust the State that much? http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
Manas, I hate to say it but this really takes the cake. Do you think such weapons (in the hands of unorganized individuals as well) can do anything against tanks, missiles, RPG's, drones, etc? I am sorry but we left the 19'th century quite a while ago.

Kevin

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manas
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by manas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:59 pm

alfa wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 am

I think in a general sense this is true everywhere in the world. People in the countryside who aren't exposed to diverse cultures, ethnic groups, etc. develop a narrow way of looking at things. Their minds remain closed to new ideas. It's like they are trapped in a time warp. Again, this is a general point about humans remaining ignorant and biased if there is no exposure to diverse groups of people.
Country folk might not know the best cafes to go to for lattes, or the latest in gender theory, or how someone is 'supposed' to speak to be regarded as informed and erudite regarding progressive social policy, but they would be the ones to survive in the event of a massive social catastrophe, because they know how to grow food, keep animals and survive, whereas the rest of us would be scurrying around like hungry rats, searching for scraps to eat, after all the supermarket shelves became empty and void after just a day or two of said crisis (and things would soon turn worse after that).
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

alan
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:28 am

Interesting article about how Americans have become so divided.
Nothing about the wisdom of farmers, because that is just plain stupid, and irrelevant.

It is a bit too long, and, like most written by scholars, equivocates more than it should. However, some very good points are made right up front. Those who doubt my premise should take a look at the maps showing distribution of voters and economic activity.
I'd add that the difference between the undereducated rural voter and those who tend towards a liberal view is well documented here, if you choose to read through the entire thing.
https://niskanencenter.org/blog/tale-tw ... arization/

Circle5
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Circle5 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:51 am

alan wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:28 am
Interesting article about how Americans have become so divided.
Nothing about the wisdom of farmers, because that is just plain stupid, and irrelevant.

It is a bit too long, and, like most written by scholars, equivocates more than it should. However, some very good points are made right up front. Those who doubt my premise should take a look at the maps showing distribution of voters and economic activity.
I'd add that the difference between the undereducated rural voter and those who tend towards a liberal view is well documented here, if you choose to read through the entire thing.
https://niskanencenter.org/blog/tale-tw ... arization/
Seems to me like the rich and educated preffered Trump. From your own article:
But voters with incomes under $50,000 decisively preferred the Democratic candidate, as usual. Surely they count as “the people.” And Trump wouldn’t have won if he hadn’t prevailed among voters making more than $100,000, as Republicans usually do.
Of course this is not because of trump populist rethoric, but because rich and educated people are overwhealmingly liberal in USA, same as they are in europe. (by liberal I mean economically, only USA uses that word differently) Those who understand the economy or work in the private sector are always liberal. Only the poor and state-payed people are leftist because it is in their advantage. That's how things are in every country.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:32 am

You have missed many points.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:01 am

Greetings,
Virgo wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Guns banned, more police presence, more CCTV, stronger sentences, that is the way.
... to a police state.

:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Virgo
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Virgo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:01 am
Greetings,
Virgo wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Guns banned, more police presence, more CCTV, stronger sentences, that is the way.
... to a police state.

:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hmmm... Melbourne has 63 CCTV cameras around the city, and the gun buy-back was in 96. Is that a police state I wonder?

Kevin

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retrofuturist
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:19 am

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 am
Hmmm... Melbourne has 63 CCTV cameras around the city, and the gun buy-back was in 96. Is that a police state I wonder?
At this point in time, we have something of a "do-nothing" government in place here in Australia. If anything, all that they do is allow for excessive immigration...

'We've done an abysmal job': Australia is struggling to handle its swelling population

(I have a theory behind why that's happening, but I'm not certain enough of it yet, to advance it in a conversation...)

At this point however, they're not endeavouring to introduce a police state, as there's no strong or obvious ideological basis (either authoritarian-left or authoritarian-right) behind anything that the government are doing. Not yet, anyway...

On the other hand, what's happening in Western Europe is very much geared towards an embryonic police state right now. Merely take a look at how England has regarded conservative journalists like Brittany Pettibone and Lauren Southern in the past week (not to mention truth-tellers like Julian Assange).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Virgo
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Virgo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:19 am
Not yet
Glad to hear it.

:anjali: Kevin

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:12 am

If, by "Conservative Journalists" you actually mean "Sh*thead losers looking for attention, who have absolutely nothing of value to say, but, do, in fact, pollute the public discourse with their hatred and stupidity", well, then yes. I would agree.

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