Americans will never give up their guns.

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Dinsdale
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:13 am

alan wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:31 am
What we should do is repeal the second amendment.
You should ( it's an anachronism ), but sadly I can't see it happening.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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DNS
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:59 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:39 am
I read something pertinent elsewhere, I'll reproduce it here:
[The] reasoning goes like this "Your chance of needing a gun is low enough that you don't need it at all" - but they are neglecting the basic tenet of "it's not the odds, it's the stakes" and when your life is on the line, it doesn't matter what the odds are. Even one attempt on my life is too many.
:goodpost:
Pseudobabble, binocular,

So do you agree with that argument or no?

I've seen some people doing open-carry, where they are armed with a pistol in a holster or between their body and their belt on their waist (legal in many states, including my state).
Here is a conversation I had with one of them:

Me: "Is the gun loaded?"
Open-carry dude: "yes, what's the use of a gun that is unloaded?"
Me: "aren't you concerned that it might go off?"
OC: "guns don't go off without someone pulling the trigger"
Me: "yes, but I see the hammer is pulled back, one slight pressure and it could go off?"
OC: "I have the safety on"
Me: "have you ever had to use it in self-defense?"
OC: "No, but . . . . and then answers as above quoted by Pseudobabble.

binocular
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm
Pseudobabble, binocular,

So do you agree with that argument or no?
Specifically when in comes to guns, I'm not sure for the time being, given that I live in a country (surrounded by other such countries) where obtaining a gun legally, but also illegally, is quite difficult, which makes the particular issue somewhat moot for me.

But the general reasoning posted by Pseudobabble succintly sums up what I've been getting at in many areas, that's why I liked the post.

(Such as, for example, my objections against the sex culture we live in, where women are expected (under threat of being stigmatized as abnormal or mentally ill) to use hormonal contraceptives and have abortions. The proponents of this culture argue that the odds of something going wrong are low, and that therefore, it's okay. But it's not okay, because it's not about the odds, it's about the stakes. Expecting women to risk health and life like that is an attempt on their life, and even just one attempt on one's life is one too many.)

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DNS
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 pm
Specifically when in comes to guns, I'm not sure for the time being, given that I live in a country (surrounded by other such countries) where obtaining a gun legally, but also illegally, is quite difficult, which makes the particular issue somewhat moot for me.
Interesting points you made about the availability of guns in your country and also the stakes involved. And I think this is why the rest of the world tends to think Americans are a bunch of gun nuts who can't see logically that it's so simple as just removing the guns and the problem will be solved. It's not just how much it's ingrained in American culture, but also just how difficult it would be to eliminate all of the existing guns, some 300 million + in the U.S., enough for every man, woman, child and infant in the U.S. And changing the laws are extremely difficult to do in the U.S.

And for Americans living in rural areas, they know the bad guys have as many or more guns than the good guys and that it could take up to an hour or longer for law enforcement to arrive at their place, so feel they must possess at least some guns for self-defense.

(In other nations, it's mostly a moot issue, since the bad guys don't have guns either.)

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Interesting points you made about the availability of guns in your country and also the stakes involved. And I think this is why the rest of the world tends to think Americans are a bunch of gun nuts who can't see logically that it's so simple as just removing the guns and the problem will be solved. It's not just how much it's ingrained in American culture, but also just how difficult it would be to eliminate all of the existing guns, some 300 million + in the U.S., enough for every man, woman, child and infant in the U.S. And changing the laws are extremely difficult to do in the U.S.
The US seem like a bizarre combination of industrial advancement and the old Wild West ...

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:20 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 pm
The US seem like a bizarre combination of industrial advancement and the old Wild West ...
:D Yes, it is. There is also a bit of urban - rural divide in the U.S. like you find in other nations too, but perhaps more pronounced in the U.S. For example, in Washington DC and NYC, I believe guns are completely banned.

Or perhaps not completely banned in NYC, but very difficult to obtain, legally or to get a permit, concealed carry, etc.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:21 am

Smart people live in the Urban areas. Sh*thead losers who voted for Trump live in the country. They love their guns. and they are stupid as Hell.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:35 am

alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:21 am
Smart people live in the Urban areas. Sh*thead losers who voted for Trump live in the country. They love their guns. and they are stupid as Hell.
alan,
Why?
chownah

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:47 am

Because smart people leave the countryside, where there is no opportunity to do anything useful.
Smart people don't like to live around stupid people, so there is brain drain.
That is why we have such a difference. No one who is intelligent and strives for a better life remains in a rural area.

Therefore, those who remain are inbred and stupid as Hell.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:38 am

alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:47 am
Because smart people leave the countryside, where there is no opportunity to do anything useful.
Smart people don't like to live around stupid people, so there is brain drain.
That is why we have such a difference. No one who is intelligent and strives for a better life remains in a rural area.

Therefore, those who remain are inbred and stupid as Hell.
Are there no farmers who are intelligent and who strive for a better life?
chownah

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alfa » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:38 am
alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:47 am
Because smart people leave the countryside, where there is no opportunity to do anything useful.
Smart people don't like to live around stupid people, so there is brain drain.
That is why we have such a difference. No one who is intelligent and strives for a better life remains in a rural area.

Therefore, those who remain are inbred and stupid as Hell.
Are there no farmers who are intelligent and who strive for a better life?
chownah
I think in a general sense this is true everywhere in the world. People in the countryside who aren't exposed to diverse cultures, ethnic groups, etc. develop a narrow way of looking at things. Their minds remain closed to new ideas. It's like they are trapped in a time warp. Again, this is a general point about humans remaining ignorant and biased if there is no exposure to diverse groups of people.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:23 am

alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:47 am
Because smart people leave the countryside, where there is no opportunity to do anything useful.
Yes, like growing food. What a useless waste of time that is!

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:10 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 pm
The US seem like a bizarre combination of industrial advancement and the old Wild West ...
Yeah, cowboys with nukes... :?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:26 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Interesting points you made about the availability of guns in your country and also the stakes involved. And I think this is why the rest of the world tends to think Americans are a bunch of gun nuts who can't see logically that it's so simple as just removing the guns and the problem will be solved. It's not just how much it's ingrained in American culture, but also just how difficult it would be to eliminate all of the existing guns, some 300 million + in the U.S., enough for every man, woman, child and infant in the U.S. And changing the laws are extremely difficult to do in the U.S.
Actually, I think many people here are quite pessimistic about the US, as they think that the US is, to use an American expression, FUBAR.

After WWII, the governments of individual countries organized the collection of any weapons left over from the wars; people were expected to hand in whatever military grade weapons they had (sometimes collected from dead soldiers, crashed airplanes). It seems that this was an effective early move to prevent the spread of firearms (but also other weapons). That early on after the wars, the government collecting weapons wasn's such a logistic nightmare as it seems it would be now in the US.

I can't imagine what it would be like to live in a country like the US, where so many people have so many guns. It seems it would only make sense to carry a gun oneself as well.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:26 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:10 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 pm
The US seem like a bizarre combination of industrial advancement and the old Wild West ...
Yeah, cowboys with nukes... :?

Couldn't resist!
chownah

binocular
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:36 am

alfa wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 am
I think in a general sense this is true everywhere in the world. People in the countryside who aren't exposed to diverse cultures, ethnic groups, etc. develop a narrow way of looking at things. Their minds remain closed to new ideas. It's like they are trapped in a time warp. Again, this is a general point about humans remaining ignorant and biased if there is no exposure to diverse groups of people.
It's not clear that mere exposure to diversity would be beneficial in any way. I think what makes the difference is the attitude to this exposure to diversity.

Secondly, I grew up in the country. City people tend to consider us retards, and some even treat us like that. For example, a while back, in the local grocery store, I was looking at some items on the shelf, and a woman came by and pushed me away to take something off the shelf, and commented what rednecks we in the country are. She spoke with an accent revealing that she's from a city.

I have heard from several people who work with people (teachers, bus drivers, ...) that here, people from the country are more polite, more decent than city people. I've also talked to an Australian bus driver who said that it's the same in Australia: people from the country are more cultured than people from the city.

The US seems like a special case.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:16 am

alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:21 am
Smart people live in the Urban areas. Sh*thead losers who voted for Trump live in the country. They love their guns. and they are stupid as Hell.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:23 am
alan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:47 am
Because smart people leave the countryside, where there is no opportunity to do anything useful.
Yes, like growing food. What a useless waste of time that is!
I know. If only those stupid, stupid people who live in the countryside and produce all the food, would just go away. Then we'd have MSNBC, CNN, The WaPo, and nothing to eat! Wouldn't that just be heaven on earth? We could eat the nonsense they print and show on screen, that'd show God Dam Trump!
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

binocular
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:21 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:16 am
I know. If only those stupid, stupid people who live in the countryside and produce all the food, would just go away. Then we'd have MSNBC, CNN, The WaPo, and nothing to eat! Wouldn't that just be heaven on earth? We could eat the nonsense they print and show on screen, that'd show God Dam Trump!
There's always Soylent Green ...

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:24 am

alfa wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 am
I think in a general sense this is true everywhere in the world. People in the countryside who aren't exposed to diverse cultures, ethnic groups, etc. develop a narrow way of looking at things. Their minds remain closed to new ideas. It's like they are trapped in a time warp. Again, this is a general point about humans remaining ignorant and biased if there is no exposure to diverse groups of people.
I've said it before, but: diversity is not an unqualified good. Pure exposure to diverse people/circumstances/etc does not necessitate an improvement. A gang of murderous robbers is not improved by being a diverse gang of murderous robbers.

I understand what you're saying about exposure, it's what I've heard called 'broadening your horizons', not staying stuck in a narrow and limited view of the world. Of course that is helpful, but it isn't sufficient. You can have a wide experience and still be a twat.

Conversely, you can have very narrow experience and be a lovely person. So it's not the case that diversity of experience is sufficient, or even necessary, to produce a good/nice/well-rounded person.
Last edited by Pseudobabble on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:21 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:16 am
I know. If only those stupid, stupid people who live in the countryside and produce all the food, would just go away. Then we'd have MSNBC, CNN, The WaPo, and nothing to eat! Wouldn't that just be heaven on earth? We could eat the nonsense they print and show on screen, that'd show God Dam Trump!
There's always Soylent Green ...
Yep, and by alan's way of thinking, its probably ok to make it out of all those 'God Dam idiots who are stupid as Hell', and who don't deserve any attempt to understand their position.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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