What is the alternative to the capitalism?

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mikenz66
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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:09 pm

Leeuwenhoek2 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 pm
Not to argue with what might be worse. But what are you pointing to here?
That slavery occurs in co-called capitalistic countries?
Slavery, particularly sex trafficing, is extremely profitable. In the link I gave above viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31097&start=20#p455139 Siddharth Kara estimates that sex slavery gives an 800% return on investment. It's the ideal Capitalism...

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm
DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 pm
So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.
In that case, would it still be accurate to call it capitalism? What amount of regulations is needed to still call it capitalism without turning it to something else?
Perhaps the distinctions are a little pointless. A large percentage of most Western economies are actually directed to a significant extent, because the governments tax and recycle up to 50% of income in some cases. Of course the money supports "capitalism" as it is paid in contracts to to fund comanies running infrastructure, health (sometimes, though outside the US most western hospitals are public), aerospace, arms, scientific research, education (again outside the US most Universities are public) and so on... Much of US industry would not exist without govermnent support (hilariously, they sometimes complain about the EU supporting Airbus, overlooking how military spending has contributed to the success of US aerospace...).

It's the developing countries with minimal tax rates that are much more purely capitalistic than the West, with essentially no social safety nets. In New Zealand, if I lost my job long term I could survive, though not luxuriously, on state support of income and medical care. I wouldn't be confident of that outside the West...

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:09 pm
Slavery, particularly sex trafficing, is extremely profitable. In the link I gave above viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31097&start=20#p455139 Siddharth Kara estimates that sex slavery gives an 800% return on investment. It's the ideal Capitalism...
:?

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?
Ideal only in the sense of profitability...

The contention of the author is that slavery exists because it is very profitable, a very good return on investment.


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chownah
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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?
Ideal only in the sense of profitability...

The contention of the author is that slavery exists because it is very profitable, a very good return on investment.
Indeed, slaves can be considered to be a capital investment just like a machine can be considered a captial investment. I'm wondering, though, if machinery can only be thought of as being indigenous to capitalism....I think not.

To make a somewhat ridiculous example: A hammer can be considered to be a capital investment....but does that make anyone who buys and uses a hammer in their livelihood a capitalist or involved in a capitalist enterprise....I think not.
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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:54 am

Now I lost the plot.
What is the pure capitalism and what is the pure socialism?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:56 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:33 am
To make a somewhat ridiculous example: A hammer can be considered to be a capital investment....but does that make anyone who buys and uses a hammer in their livelihood a capitalist or involved in a capitalist enterprise....I think not.
Capitalism about who owns the means of production... is it private or public ownership of the means of production?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:11 am

Capitalism about who owns the means of production..
Then why socialist restrict the practice of religion?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:17 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:11 am
Then why socialist restrict the practice of religion?
Many answers could be given.

I think the most is direct answer is that they want their ideology to take the place of religion, and in fact, need it to be held in such esteem in order for society to be compliant with its impost and squalor. No world religion supports this mode of centralized authoritarianism, so they need to sell their socialist and communist propaganda as being the next phase of humanistic advancement, beyond religion.

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:52 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:11 am
Capitalism about who owns the means of production..
Then why socialist restrict the practice of religion?
Not all socialists do......only some of them restrict religion....many do not.
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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:56 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:33 am
To make a somewhat ridiculous example: A hammer can be considered to be a capital investment....but does that make anyone who buys and uses a hammer in their livelihood a capitalist or involved in a capitalist enterprise....I think not.
Capitalism about who owns the means of production... is it private or public ownership of the means of production?

Metta,
Paul. :)
I may be wrong but it seems to me that then someone how buys a hammer and makes a livelihood from using it is a capitalist (if she also supports the idea of individuals making their livelihood similarly) and is involved in a capitalist enterprise.
Is that right?
chownah

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:07 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:02 am
I may be wrong but it seems to me that then someone how buys a hammer and makes a livelihood from using it is a capitalist (if she also supports the idea of individuals making their livelihood similarly) and is involved in a capitalist enterprise.
Is that right?
Convoluted sentence structure aside, I guess it does.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Capitalism - basic considerations

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:54 am

Capitalism (wikipedia) wrote:Capitalism is an economic system and ideology based upon private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include:
  • private property,
  • capital accumulation,
  • wage labor,
  • voluntary exchange,
  • a price system
  • competitive markets.
In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investment are determined by the owners of the means of production in financial and capital markets ...

Economists, political economists, sociologists, and historians have adopted different perspectives in their analyses of capitalism and have recognized various forms of it in practice. These include laissez-faire or free market capitalism, welfare capitalism and state capitalism.
Different forms of capitalism feature varying degrees of free markets, public ownership, obstacles to free competition and state-sanctioned social policies. The degree of competition in markets, the role of intervention and regulation and the scope of state ownership vary across different models of capitalism.
The extent to which different markets are free, as well as the rules defining private property, are matters of politics and policy. Most existing capitalist economies are mixed economies, which combine elements of free markets with state intervention and in some cases economic planning.
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
--------------------------------------
Capitalism and Slavery
  • A right to private property is required for practical capitalist systems.
  • A most basic private property right is the right to treat oneself as private property. Your life belongs to you. This includes the right to the fruits of our labor, rights over our body (no torture, freedom of movement, Physical Integrity Rights)
  • Slavery requires the right to own persons as property, thus slavery is antithetical to capitalism. Slavery requires an exception to the basic right to own ourselves.
  • The first countries to ban slavery were democratic capitalistic countries.
Physical Integrity Rights --
----------------------------------------

Many advocates for capitalism point to a vital relationship between capitalism, freedom and civil rights and economic freedom. They note a strong correlation between economic freedom, civil rights, and many measures of human flourishing, health, quality of life and education.
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

As a practical matter non-capitalistic systems have not solved the problems of power, greed and inhumanity.

-----------------------------------------

Right to Happiness and the pursuit of Self-interest
Here is where morality and deep compassion requires wisdom and understanding.
A moral defense of capitalism must be able to defend the idea of the free pursuit of self interest.
Opponents of capitalism attack it on conceptual moral grounds especially around self interest, greed, public interest.
Defenders point out that happiness and life satisfaction comes from living according to ones moral code and a degree of concern for others. People who are narrowly self interested rarely are happy. Think Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation.
The freedom to be self interested maximizes the freedom to be ethical, kind, generous, wise, and compassionate.

I don't think it's going too far to say that freedom of self interest includes, and strongly supports, the right and ability to fully practice the dharma. What do you think?

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:36 am

The countries with the highest estimated prevalence of modern slavery by the proportion of their population are North Korea, Uzbekistan, Cambodia, India, and Qatar.

The countries with the lowest estimated prevalence of modern slavery by the proportion of their population are Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden and Belgium, the United States and Canada, and Australia and New Zealand. These countries generally have more economic wealth, score higher on government response, have low levels of conflict, and are politically stable with a willingness to combat modern slavery.
--https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/
Global Slavery Index 2016 key findings:
  • Total number of people enslaved globally: 45.8 million people.
  • Enhanced methodology reveals that 10 million more people are enslaved than previously estimated – a 28% increase.
  • India remains the country with highest absolute number of people in slavery (18.3m). Its government’s response is strengthening rapidly.
  • Survey research includes over 42,000 interviews in 53 languages across 25 countries, representing 44% of global population, including 15 state-level surveys in India.
  • Modern slavery exists in all 167 countries covered by the Global Slavery Index.
  • North Korea has the highest incidence of modern slavery (4.37% of population) and weakest government response.
London & Perth, 31 May 2016 — An estimated 45.8 million men, women and children around the world are today trapped in modern slavery – 28% more than previously estimated. They are enslaved through human trafficking, forced labour, debt bondage, forced or servile marriage or commercial sexual exploitation. This is revealed in the 2016 Global Slavery Index, the flagship research report published today by the Walk Free Foundation.

North Korea is the country with the greatest prevalence of modern slavery, with 4.37% of its population estimated to be enslaved. It is also the country with the weakest government response in terms of actions taken to combat modern slavery.
The next highest prevalence of slavery is found in Uzbekistan (3.97%), followed by Cambodia (1.65%).

In terms of absolute numbers, India remains the highest with an estimated 18.35 million enslaved people, followed by China (3.39m), Pakistan (2.13m), Bangladesh (1.53m) and Uzbekistan (1.23m). Combined, these five countries account for almost 58% of the world’s enslaved, or 26.6 million people.
--https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/medi ... oss-world/
Capitalism and political stability are correlated with the lowest levels of slavery.

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Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:07 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:02 am
I may be wrong but it seems to me that then someone how buys a hammer and makes a livelihood from using it is a capitalist (if she also supports the idea of individuals making their livelihood similarly) and is involved in a capitalist enterprise.
Is that right?
Convoluted sentence structure aside, I guess it does.

Metta,
Paul. :)
What a sentence!.....I think I may have become w-lexic....not sure.....
Anyway, I agree.......capitalism doesn't have to be a bad thing. I know that most people who post here don't think it is a bad thing but there are those who get a knee jerk negative reaction to the mention of the word.
chownah

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