What is the alternative to the capitalism?

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:58 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:30 am
I think this is the worst case of capitalism.
Here is an interesting interview about slavery, and why it is so profitable:

Siddharth Kara: the modern slave trade
Siddharth Kara has spent the last 16 years traveling the world, speaking and listening to victims as well as perpetrators - documenting their stories. He has calculated that slavery is now much more profitable than during periods of history when it was legal - with more than 30 million people enslaved around the globe. He's written three books on the subject and also written and produced a movie about the modern slave trade, starring Ashley Judd.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/progr ... lave-trade
:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Leeuwenhoek2
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:30 am
I think this is the worst case of capitalism.
Caption to video link to slavery in Nepal.
I started a response then caught myself and realized that I was jumping to conclusions about what you were trying to say. So better to ask questions to clarify.

Not to argue with what might be worse. But what are you pointing to here?
  • That slavery occurs in co-called capitalistic countries?
  • That slavery is somehow characteristic of capitalist countries?
  • That slavery is worse when it happens inside a capitalistic country?
  • That slavery occurs more often in more capitalistic countries?
  • That this slavery is somehow better when it happens in a less capitalistic, non-capitalist, or anti-capitalist country. ( And it does occur in such countries. Perhaps more often.)
  • That there is something particular to capitalism that encourages slavery more than in less-capitalistic countries?

Also, in your perspective how does linking slavery to capitalism add to the conversation?
Last edited by Leeuwenhoek2 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:08 pm

Capitalism invented the mechanism of always keeping us nearly satisfied, but not completely.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by DNS » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 pm

To get back more to the topic of the OP:

There is no good alternative to capitalism except to improve upon it. Socialism and communism only sound good in theory and actually cause much destruction and poverty in practice. And then in reality there was always an underground capitalist system and corruption in all socialist and communist systems. Today the few remaining "communist" countries have all moved toward capitalism and only still call themselves communist so that they don't have to hold democratic elections.

So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1771
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 pm
So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.
In that case, would it still be accurate to call it capitalism? What amount of regulations is needed to still call it capitalism without turning it to something else?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

User avatar
Leeuwenhoek2
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:10 pm

Capitalism invented the mechanism of always keeping us nearly satisfied, but not completely.
A mechanism or "the mechanism"?
Please excuse and correct me if I misunderstand ... but what is the point of this -- other than a piece of rhetorical mischief?

Do you claim that before capitalism there was no mechanism that kept people nearly, but not completely satisfied?
The Buddha only spoke to people who didn't feel "nearly satisfied" (what ever that is)?

---------------------------------------
Whatever might be said of the comment above in general I think it's accurate to observe ...
Some critiques of capitalism move so quickly into silliness or worse that what one should suspect that whatever "cure" or solution offered or suggested is probably going to be worse than the disease. Or at least, one wouldn't want to live in a society ruled by the level of reasoning demonstrated by the critiques.

But then again, it's been observed more than once that the quality of people, virtue, practical ethics and thinking in a society may count as much or more than the form of government or economics they follow.

When we move beyond platitudes and the "view from 50,000 feet" and get down to facts -- relevant information that can be checked, information that diverse people can agree upon as tests -- then it gets difficult to maintain a rosy self-assurance in the righteousness of one's beliefs. That applies all around, to capitalism's supporters too. But compassion and care require going there.
I start with the working hypothesis that twitter length pronouncements are little more that some kind of signaling until demonstrated otherwise. My questions are invitations for the writer to demonstrate otherwise.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by DNS » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:35 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm
DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 pm
So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.
In that case, would it still be accurate to call it capitalism? What amount of regulations is needed to still call it capitalism without turning it to something else?
Yes, because the means of production are predominantly privately owned and operated, investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy. And then the additional regulations are there to prevent abuses of the system and to provide safety nets. So it is still a capitalist system / mixed economy. In Western Europe, which is considered left wing by U.S. standards or at least left of center, you still find Saab, Porsche, Mercedes and numerous other privately owned companies in a market economy.

SarathW
Posts: 10514
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:19 pm

marxist leninism is state capitalism
Agree.
China is now a good example.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10514
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:36 pm

Leeuwenhoek2 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 pm
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:30 am
I think this is the worst case of capitalism.
Caption to video link to slavery in Nepal.
I started a response then caught myself and realized that I was jumping to conclusions about what you were trying to say. So better to ask questions to clarify.

Not to argue with what might be worse. But what are you pointing to here?
  • That slavery occurs in co-called capitalistic countries?
  • That slavery is somehow characteristic of capitalist countries?
  • That slavery is worse when it happens inside a capitalistic country?
  • That slavery occurs more often in more capitalistic countries?
  • That this slavery is somehow better when it happens in a less capitalistic, non-capitalist, or anti-capitalist country. ( And it does occur in such countries. Perhaps more often.)
  • That there is something particular to capitalism that encourages slavery more than in less-capitalistic countries?

Also, in your perspective how does linking slavery to capitalism add to the conversation?
That slavery occurs in co-called capitalistic countries? Yes
That slavery is somehow characteristic of capitalist countries? Yes
That slavery is worse when it happens inside a capitalistic country? Yes
That slavery occurs more often in more capitalistic countries? Yes
That this slavery is somehow better when it happens in a less capitalistic, non-capitalist, or anti-capitalist country. ( And it does occur in such countries. Perhaps more often.) No
That there is something particular to capitalism that encourages slavery more than in less-capitalistic countries? Yes
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:04 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:19 pm
marxist leninism is state capitalism
Agree.
China is now a good example.
I don't see that at all. Most of the socialism has been dismantled (there is less social support than in Europe/New Zealand/Australia/etc, from what I gather from my Chinese colleagues), and It's simply capitalism with an extremely authoritarian goverment.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:09 pm

Leeuwenhoek2 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 pm
Not to argue with what might be worse. But what are you pointing to here?
That slavery occurs in co-called capitalistic countries?
Slavery, particularly sex trafficing, is extremely profitable. In the link I gave above viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31097&start=20#p455139 Siddharth Kara estimates that sex slavery gives an 800% return on investment. It's the ideal Capitalism...

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm
DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 pm
So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.
In that case, would it still be accurate to call it capitalism? What amount of regulations is needed to still call it capitalism without turning it to something else?
Perhaps the distinctions are a little pointless. A large percentage of most Western economies are actually directed to a significant extent, because the governments tax and recycle up to 50% of income in some cases. Of course the money supports "capitalism" as it is paid in contracts to to fund comanies running infrastructure, health (sometimes, though outside the US most western hospitals are public), aerospace, arms, scientific research, education (again outside the US most Universities are public) and so on... Much of US industry would not exist without govermnent support (hilariously, they sometimes complain about the EU supporting Airbus, overlooking how military spending has contributed to the success of US aerospace...).

It's the developing countries with minimal tax rates that are much more purely capitalistic than the West, with essentially no social safety nets. In New Zealand, if I lost my job long term I could survive, though not luxuriously, on state support of income and medical care. I wouldn't be confident of that outside the West...

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20163
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:09 pm
Slavery, particularly sex trafficing, is extremely profitable. In the link I gave above viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31097&start=20#p455139 Siddharth Kara estimates that sex slavery gives an 800% return on investment. It's the ideal Capitalism...
:?

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?
Ideal only in the sense of profitability...

The contention of the author is that slavery exists because it is very profitable, a very good return on investment.


:heart:
Mike

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the alternative to the capitalism?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:41 pm

The ideal capitalism is one that involves slavery?
Ideal only in the sense of profitability...

The contention of the author is that slavery exists because it is very profitable, a very good return on investment.
Indeed, slaves can be considered to be a capital investment just like a machine can be considered a captial investment. I'm wondering, though, if machinery can only be thought of as being indigenous to capitalism....I think not.

To make a somewhat ridiculous example: A hammer can be considered to be a capital investment....but does that make anyone who buys and uses a hammer in their livelihood a capitalist or involved in a capitalist enterprise....I think not.
chownah

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests