Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:11 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:05 pm

Bannon gave his opinion (what I quoted) not facts which can be questioned (like X met Y at Z's dinner party and made a deal to sell the blueprints of THAAD missile defense system).

With facts one might say he was not being entirely honest. But negative opinions are always honest (how can a negative opinion be dishonest?)
Easily - the expression of that opinion might not be what the person expressing it really believes.

But I'm not really interested in Bannon here - my comments were about Wolff's book, its veracity, and the responses to it.

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:13 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:20 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:48 am

If thinking that a president should be removed from office is always and invariably a partisan position then obvoiusly wolff would be deemed "partisan".

It could be that wolff thinks that the president is incompetent and should be removed from office and that it has nothing to do with the president's political motivations....in my view this is not a partisan position.....other people might weaponise it and raise a partisan issue.....
chownah
This is largely a matter of semantics. I think the meaning of "partisan", and Wolff's allegiances, are less important here than what he is up to - which seems to be a deliberate attempt to discredit Trump on a number of issues. He is doing quite well on this, particularly in that he is to some extent using Trump's own tactics, and he stands to make a lot of money out of it. I think most of his claims seem to be eminently contestable, however, and it will be interesting to see which way it develops.
I'm not sure if it is largely a matter of semantics. I think that since the book has few if any partisan handles to grasp then the partisan angle of the book becomes less important and what will be made of the book is what is left.....and surely there will be a partisan bias there in spades.

All of the claims are contestable.....and will be contested. You can bet that trump's political strategists will be or already have charted out every single claim, dissected it into as many parts as possible in as many ways as possible, studied (or are studying) every person which can be related in any way to any of the parts of every possible breakdown, and have constructed or are constructing fall back after fall back and advance after advance strategies for all of the different ways that they can possibley unfold. This is what political strategists do......I'm wondering how much artificial intelligence is being used.....doing a complete breakdown and reaction analysis for a book like this requires huge amounts of data and processing which has been usually done by humans but this kind of task might be able to be automated....maybe not yet though.....
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:30 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:13 pm
All of the claims are contestable.....and will be contested. You can bet that trump's political strategists will be or already have charted out every single claim, dissected it into as many parts as possible in as many ways as possible, studied (or are studying) every person which can be related in any way to any of the parts of every possible breakdown, and have constructed or are constructing fall back after fall back and advance after advance strategies for all of the different ways that they can possibley unfold. This is what political strategists do......I'm wondering how much artificial intelligence is being used.....doing a complete breakdown and reaction analysis for a book like this requires huge amounts of data and processing which has been usually done by humans but this kind of task might be able to be automated....maybe not yet though.....
chownah
Agreed. What I find interesting about this situation is the extent to which Trump himself will have an impact upon the strategists. There are a number of different scenarios. He might be so stupid - or so willfully unconventional and scornful of traditions here - that he dispenses with the strategists' advice, or is even unable to follow it. This would be the scenario suggested by the contents of Wolff's book. Alternatively, he might just allow them to get on with it, and follow their advice. Thirdly, he might have, or think he has, a better insight into the situation than the strategists, and do his own thing. This is what he appears to do in the cases of "Twitter diplomacy", etc., and in line with Scott Adams' view of him as a master manipulator. He seems to value his ability to be a "game changer" above a lot of the standard traditional pieties.

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Bundokji
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:37 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:58 am
My view is that it is wrong to let you or me or anyone else decide for voters what is useful for them to know concerning a candidate or his associates.....so I guess I'm saying it is inappropriate for you to state that there is nothing useful in the book unless you qualify this by saying that there is nothing in the book that you find useful FOR YOU.

As to what the voters find useful......isn't that what freedom of speech is all about?....you let the voters hear everything (in theory just everything that is the truth but that is difficult to monitor) and let them each sort out what they find useful.
chownah
My statement was descriptive, not prescriptive. It would indeed be inappropriate for me to say that nothing is useful in the book in a way that implies that the book should be banned/censored. Consequently, your reply is a misrepresentation of my original massage.

I also made a distinction to explain why i think nothing is useful in the book, simply by making an exception (the issue of Russia) which might have legal consequences. So i did not make an empty claim, but provided reasoning/explanation of why i view the book the way i do.

You, on the other hand, decided to overlook all of this and lecture me of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate to say!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:37 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:58 am
My view is that it is wrong to let you or me or anyone else decide for voters what is useful for them to know concerning a candidate or his associates.....so I guess I'm saying it is inappropriate for you to state that there is nothing useful in the book unless you qualify this by saying that there is nothing in the book that you find useful FOR YOU.

As to what the voters find useful......isn't that what freedom of speech is all about?....you let the voters hear everything (in theory just everything that is the truth but that is difficult to monitor) and let them each sort out what they find useful.
chownah
My statement was descriptive, not prescriptive. It would indeed be inappropriate for me to say that nothing is useful in the book in a way that implies that the book should be banned/censored. Consequently, your reply is a misrepresentation of my original massage.

I also made a distinction to explain why i think nothing is useful in the book, simply by making an exception (the issue of Russia) which might have legal consequences. So i did not make an empty claim, but provided reasoning/explanation of why i view the book the way i do.

You, on the other hand, decided to overlook all of this and lecture me of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate to say!
I have read your entire post carefully. After this reading I am even more concerned that you are trying to place yourself as the arbiter of what contents of the book are to be considered to be useful. Perhaps I simply do not understand what you are saying....I don't know.

So...rather than to continue to discuss your meaning and my understanding or lack thereof let me just ask you the question. Do you think that anyone other than individual voters should decide what things are useful or important for them to know?
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:28 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 pm
Do you think that anyone other than individual voters should decide what things are useful or important for them to know?
No, but i fail to see why this is relevant!

Your question implies, if i am not mistaken, that you perceived my post as a decision on behalf of voters.

If the above interpretation is correct, could you demonstrate where did i decide on behalf of anyone?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

pulga
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by pulga » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:14 pm

Former Trump political strategist Steve Bannon apologized Sunday for unflattering comments attributed to him in the recently released Trump White House tell-all “Fire and Fury,” saying he “regrets” his delayed response and that he continues to support the president.
Bannon expresses 'regret' for comments attributed to him in 'Fire and Fury'

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:09 pm

pulga wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:14 pm
Former Trump political strategist Steve Bannon apologized Sunday for unflattering comments attributed to him in the recently released Trump White House tell-all “Fire and Fury,” saying he “regrets” his delayed response and that he continues to support the president.
Bannon expresses 'regret' for comments attributed to him in 'Fire and Fury'
Thanks for this, pulga. Things are getting predictably more interesting and more murky, and I'm sure some people will soon start saying that Bannon has himself been misquoted, or that he has been threatened or bribed.

As ever, the real facts remain beyond verification by us mere mortals, and most of the interest lies in people's reactions to the changing narrative and counter-claims. It's ironic how the same liberals who claimed Trump had cheated, lied, and illegally conspired with Russia to gain the presidency, are now happy to endorse a book which claims that he never really wanted to be president in the first place. It's a funny old world!

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No_Mind
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by No_Mind » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:12 am

I know one thing: that I know nothing

pulga
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by pulga » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:15 am

Tammy Bruce has written a scathing opinion piece on Mr. Wolff and the reception of his book.

Tammy Bruce: 'Fake but important' Trump book proves liberals don't care about the truth

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:45 am

pulga wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:15 am
Tammy Bruce has written a scathing opinion piece on Mr. Wolff and the reception of his book.

Tammy Bruce: 'Fake but important' Trump book proves liberals don't care about the truth
I haven't looked at the link.....and doubt that I will. Why?....because anyone who thinks that this book can "prove" that "liberals" don't care about the "truth" deserves to be ignored....unless they have a knife at your throat. :jumping:
chownah

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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:07 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:28 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 pm
Do you think that anyone other than individual voters should decide what things are useful or important for them to know?
No, but i fail to see why this is relevant!

Your question implies, if i am not mistaken, that you perceived my post as a decision on behalf of voters.

If the above interpretation is correct, could you demonstrate where did i decide on behalf of anyone?
You are mistaken. I perceived your post as being descriptive of the book.....and you described it as being:
Apart from possible Russian involvement in the elections (which is being investigated) and which is open to many different interpretations as if countries (including the US) don't try to influence policies of other nations, there is nothing useful or based on facts (as opposite to opinions) from what i have read.
It is excellent that you indicate that your description of the book is based on what you have read which shows that your knowledge of what is in the book is limited. When I read this it seems that you have judged the book by saying "there is nothing useful". You may think that there is adequate context there to show that it is that YOU find no use for what the book contains but if there is then I missed it and still continue to miss it upon re-reading. I am sometimes a careless reader and sometimes/many times/often I do not completely understand what someone has written.....but I think that there are many people who are even more careless in their reading and their understanding and I am sure that many of them will take away from your post that there is nothing useful in the book.

I think that it is important for people to understand that different people find different uses for different things in different contexts....especially when it comes to gov't and politics. I think that it is important for people to be exposed to the idea that no one can define what is useful and what is not for people to know when making decisions about gov't and politics. I am not saying that you disagree with this but only that your post can very easily be taken as expressing that there is nothing useful in the book.....and this is something which should be fully and explicitly contextualized by the disclaimer "useful for me".

I reallly don't want to talk about your post anymore. Your post is not the issue I am raising. Your post just brought to my mind the issue....which is that the book should not be judged by whether any person or group finds any of its contents useful and that this idea flow out of or supports the idea of freedom of speech. America has as a founding principle the idea of freedom of speech and one reason (perhaps the main reason) is that when it comes to gov't or politics different people find different things useful so if you want to encourage the fullest participation in decision making then you must present all that is truthful (of course this is difficult to monitor) and let each individual find in that ocean of truth the things which they find useful.
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Bundokji » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:20 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:07 am
It is excellent that you indicate that your description of the book is based on what you have read which shows that your knowledge of what is in the book is limited. When I read this it seems that you have judged the book by saying "there is nothing useful". You may think that there is adequate context there to show that it is that YOU find no use for what the book contains but if there is then I missed it and still continue to miss it upon re-reading. I am sometimes a careless reader and sometimes/many times/often I do not completely understand what someone has written.....but I think that there are many people who are even more careless in their reading and their understanding and I am sure that many of them will take away from your post that there is nothing useful in the book.
Communication through the internet is not easy and it can cause misunderstanding, but i still prefer it to other ways of communications because it allow us more time to formulate our ideas before sharing them with others, and we have the advantage to quote each other to clarify any misunderstandings/disagreements.

Ideally, we communicate to exchange knowledge, and i view knowledge as a process or an exercise (akin to the term "practice" used in Buddhism). Within the limitation of the tool available to us though written communications, which is thoughts, i usually tend to invest time engaging in meaning analysis which might look boring to many discussants. I do it to ensure that I and the people i am engaging with know what we are talking about. For instance, our conversation started with investigating the meaning of truth and how it can be compared/contrasted with the term beneficial. The interrelationship between these terms is important, and related to Buddhism, at least in the way i currently understand it.

I also try to provide enough context to avoid misinterpretations as much as i can. For example, i stated where i got the information about the book from (articles on the BBC). I did not claim to have read the book:
What i have read was mainly articles on the BBC about the book and the most controversial points included in it. What i noticed is that most of the points are critical of Trump as a person more than discussing policy issues. They are also based on opinions and impressions of people surrounding him such as they did not believe that he was going to win, that his wife cried (not out of joy) when he won the elections, that some of his staff view him as childish, there was also comments/opinions of Bannon about his son's meeting with Russian officials during the elections without the presence of a lawyer which Bannon believes that this is treasonous ...etc
The context i chose to present my ideas was an attempt to share what i think of as "knowledge worth knowing and sharing". Sometime, we get influenced by ideas we encounter in our life along the path, the following is one of them:
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt
chownah wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:07 am
I think that it is important for people to understand that different people find different uses for different things in different contexts....especially when it comes to gov't and politics. I think that it is important for people to be exposed to the idea that no one can define what is useful and what is not for people to know when making decisions about gov't and politics. I am not saying that you disagree with this but only that your post can very easily be taken as expressing that there is nothing useful in the book.....and this is something which should be fully and explicitly contextualized by the disclaimer "useful for me".
I also try to approach knowledge in an impersonal way. When we make a statement, of course we are expressing ourselves, but we don't live in a vacuum and we owe others an explanation of why we believe things in a certain way. Your emphasis on adding the words "useful for me" is probably related to your beliefs about freedom, which i also think is different from mine. For example, we had a discussion in the past where you believe that any form of government is necessarily coercive. You might be an anarchist, i don't know, but this might explain your sensitivity and/or over emphasis on how ideas should be presented. I might be wrong though.
chownah wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:07 am
I reallly don't want to talk about your post anymore. Your post is not the issue I am raising. Your post just brought to my mind the issue....which is that the book should not be judged by whether any person or group finds any of its contents useful and that this idea flow out of or supports the idea of freedom of speech. America has as a founding principle the idea of freedom of speech and one reason (perhaps the main reason) is that when it comes to gov't or politics different people find different things useful so if you want to encourage the fullest participation in decision making then you must present all that is truthful (of course this is difficult to monitor) and let each individual find in that ocean of truth the things which they find useful.
The above is not an invitation for you to continue to engage analyzing my post, but my own attempt to explain why i choose to communicate in a certain way. When it comes to free speech, i don't think free always means good. Ideally, we hope people can be free and at the same time responsible, hence my emphasis was not on what was there, but what i found missing (acting responsibly)
Regardless of the truth of such claims, i am not sure how raising them is beneficial, or how attempting to humiliate a president of a country would help to move things into the right direction.
The abovementioned approach by news agencies corrupted the public mind in my opinion. The main focus becomes excitement rather than rational reporting of policy issues
Also in history, we can see evidence of how personal attacks against presidents influenced their policies in ways that created more suffering. It is widely believed that Bill Clinton's Scandal with Monica Lewinsky was a major contributing factor of Rocket attacks against Iraq at that time to deviate the public attention from the personal affair. At the end of the day, presidents are human beings.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:09 am

Bundokji wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:20 am
Regardless of the truth of such claims, i am not sure how raising them is beneficial, or how attempting to humiliate a president of a country would help to move things into the right direction.
This is not a repy to bundokji.
When reading such claims I share the same thoughts as these......then I remember that it is up to each person to regard these claims and for each person to decide if any of what has been claimed is true, important, and/or beneficial.....as well as deciding what is false, unimportant, and/or unbeneficial.....as well as deciding what is detrimental.
chownah

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manas
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by manas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:16 pm

alan wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:44 am
Steve Bannon is a weird dude. He's a Nihilist. He says says things just to get attention. All that is true. But does it mean that everything he says is a lie? I don't know. What he says in this article rings true to me.
There is a new book coming out, from a respected journalist. Quotes Bannon extensively, and also some new reporting which I think everyone should read.
Because if the reality if half this bad, we should all be worried. You guys know I am anti-Trump. But I will never report fake news. Read this excerpt from the book, and then tell me why you are not afraid, and do not hate Trump.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... trump.html
I understand your concern alan, but the trouble is, between Trump and Bannon, I can't figure out who I trust less...

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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