Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

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Bundokji
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Bundokji » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:06 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:28 pm
Bundokji,
You start with:
From your input, you are using the word "truth" in the sense that what is written in the book corresponds to events that took place in the real world, and you both concluded that this will necessarily be beneficial.
THis seems really theoretic. No need to be so theoretic....It seems that you are failing to actually take a look at what is in the book and make a statement about that. It sounds like you are saying that not all truths when expressed are beneficial.....I won't dispute that.....but.....this is not some theoretic situation....there is a book...its already existing content is what I am talking about.

My view is that if what is written in the book is true then it is a matter of great public interest and even international concern that the issues raise be dealt with or at least analyzed and considered........perhaps you are not aware of what is written in the book.

I want to stress that I am not saying that what is written is true.....but then I am not saying that it is false either.....but I think that some of the issues raised are of great importance.
chownah
What i have read was mainly articles on the BBC about the book and the most controversial points included in it. What i noticed is that most of the points are critical of Trump as a person more than discussing policy issues. They are also based on opinions and impressions of people surrounding him such as they did not believe that he was going to win, that his wife cried (not out of joy) when he won the elections, that some of his staff view him as childish, there was also comments/opinions of Bannon about his son's meeting with Russian officials during the elections without the presence of a lawyer which Bannon believes that this is treasonous ...etc

Apart from possible Russian involvement in the elections (which is being investigated) and which is open to many different interpretations as if countries (including the US) don't try to influence policies of other nations, there is nothing useful or based on facts (as opposite to opinions) from what i have read.

We, as human beings, are vulnerable to suggestions. What we view as important and relevant, or the opposite, is driven to a large extent by how the content is presented to us. For example, how the news is ranked or organized on a website or a newspaper gives us the impression that a particular story is so important (the size of the words, the font, the cunning use of certain words that appeals to emotions more than reason ...etc)

The abovementioned approach by news agencies corrupted the public mind in my opinion. The main focus becomes excitement rather than rational reporting of policy issues. This created a reaction on the opposite direction in the sense that people defended the person as reaction to attacks on him as a person. The least concern of everyone, it seems to me, are policy issues, and even when they are discussed, they are often used as a disguise to attack or defend the person. Trump has created for himself a personality cult and those who hate him fall for it more than those who support him in my opinion.

More generally, respecting the ruler is not a virtue that is valued in the west, all in the name of democracy. I think avoiding personal attacks on a president would help make criticism of his policies more effective as this would strip him from using personal attacks as an excuse to justify wrong policies.

Also in history, we can see evidence of how personal attacks against presidents influenced their policies in ways that created more suffering. It is widely believed that Bill Clinton's Scandal with Monica Lewinsky was a major contributing factor of Rocket attacks against Iraq at that time to deviate the public attention from the personal affair. At the end of the day, presidents are human beings.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:09 pm

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:29 am
Just out of curiosity, Retro, do you have the same positive feelings for Malcolm Turnbull or Tony Abbott that you have for Trump, who is your favourite?? I can't help but wonder if you actually lived in the USA if your positive take on Trump might be less so??
Turnbull is a bit of a nothing man, and nothing happens on his watch. I don't mind that actually, because it's better than things going in the wrong direction, which would be the case if Labour was in.

I didn't much like Tony Abbott at the time, and don't think he was a particularly competent Prime Minister, but in retrospect, he did help to forestall the arrival of some of the SJW cultural madness to Australian shores, so for proving that barrier for a period of time, I thank him.

That said, neither man is one-sixteenth of the man that GEOTE is, and neither is as adept at WINNING!!!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

pulga
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by pulga » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:21 pm

This appears to be a fairly balanced article from Politico:

Journalists scrutinize Michael Wolff's credibility

With the economy doing well and with more pressing problems facing the country, President Trump ought to just weather the storm with as much constraint as he can muster. It'll pass.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:27 pm

Although I agreed entirely with Chownah's earlier assertions about Wolff's impartiality regarding the political allegiances of those he attacks, he is now starting to look rather more partisan:
Wolff spoke to the BBC. He said: “I think one of the interesting effects of the book so far is a very clear ‘emperor has no clothes’ effect.”

He added: “The story that I have told seems to present this presidency in such a way that it says he can’t do his job.

“Suddenly everywhere people are going: ‘Oh my God, it’s true, he has no clothes.’ That’s the background to the perception and the understanding that will finally end … this presidency.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hael-wolff

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:48 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:27 pm
Although I agreed entirely with Chownah's earlier assertions about Wolff's impartiality regarding the political allegiances of those he attacks, he is now starting to look rather more partisan:
Wolff spoke to the BBC. He said: “I think one of the interesting effects of the book so far is a very clear ‘emperor has no clothes’ effect.”

He added: “The story that I have told seems to present this presidency in such a way that it says he can’t do his job.

“Suddenly everywhere people are going: ‘Oh my God, it’s true, he has no clothes.’ That’s the background to the perception and the understanding that will finally end … this presidency.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hael-wolff
If thinking that a president should be removed from office is always and invariably a partisan position then obvoiusly wolff would be deemed "partisan".

It could be that wolff thinks that the president is incompetent and should be removed from office and that it has nothing to do with the president's political motivations....in my view this is not a partisan position.....other people might weaponise it and raise a partisan issue.....
chownah

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No_Mind
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by No_Mind » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:49 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:27 pm
Although I agreed entirely with Chownah's earlier assertions about Wolff's impartiality regarding the political allegiances of those he attacks, he is now starting to look rather more partisan:
All that is relevant is - Bannon has said on record that ..
a) "The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor -- with no lawyers. They didn't have any lawyers," Bannon continued, according to the Guardian. "Even if you thought that this was not treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad s***, and I happen to think it's all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately."

b) "You realize where this is going ... This is all about money laundering. Mueller chose (senior prosecutor Andrew) Weissmann first and he is a money-laundering guy," Bannon reportedly said. "Their path to f***ing Trump goes right through Paul Manafort, Don Jr., and Jared Kushner ... It's as plain as a hair on your face."
source CNN
The very fact that Bannon .. who was often whispered to be almost as powerful as the President .. has not denied these comments shows how much trouble Trump is in.

It does not really matter if Wolff is partisan. He is just the messenger. It is the message that we must look at. The message is Trump is in serious trouble.

Imagine what Steve Bannon would have to tell when called as witness by Mueller.

:namaste:

No_Mind
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:20 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:48 am

If thinking that a president should be removed from office is always and invariably a partisan position then obvoiusly wolff would be deemed "partisan".

It could be that wolff thinks that the president is incompetent and should be removed from office and that it has nothing to do with the president's political motivations....in my view this is not a partisan position.....other people might weaponise it and raise a partisan issue.....
chownah
This is largely a matter of semantics. I think the meaning of "partisan", and Wolff's allegiances, are less important here than what he is up to - which seems to be a deliberate attempt to discredit Trump on a number of issues. He is doing quite well on this, particularly in that he is to some extent using Trump's own tactics, and he stands to make a lot of money out of it. I think most of his claims seem to be eminently contestable, however, and it will be interesting to see which way it develops.

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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:27 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:49 am

It does not really matter if Wolff is partisan. He is just the messenger. It is the message that we must look at. The message is Trump is in serious trouble.

Imagine what Steve Bannon would have to tell when called as witness by Mueller.

:namaste:

No_Mind
Maybe. If the messenger is completely discredited, then people might stop being concerned about the message. We are already seeing denials elsewhere, and people might think that Bannon has reasons for being less than honest. I don't think many people really know what is going on yet, which is why for me the main interest is political journalism and the public response, rather than a constitutional one.

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:58 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:06 pm

Apart from possible Russian involvement in the elections (which is being investigated) and which is open to many different interpretations as if countries (including the US) don't try to influence policies of other nations, there is nothing useful or based on facts (as opposite to opinions) from what i have read.
My view is that it is wrong to let you or me or anyone else decide for voters what is useful for them to know concerning a candidate or his associates.....so I guess I'm saying it is inappropriate for you to state that there is nothing useful in the book unless you qualify this by saying that there is nothing in the book that you find useful FOR YOU.

As to what the voters find useful......isn't that what freedom of speech is all about?....you let the voters hear everything (in theory just everything that is the truth but that is difficult to monitor) and let them each sort out what they find useful.
chownah

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No_Mind
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by No_Mind » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:05 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:27 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:49 am

It does not really matter if Wolff is partisan. He is just the messenger. It is the message that we must look at. The message is Trump is in serious trouble.

Imagine what Steve Bannon would have to tell when called as witness by Mueller.

:namaste:

No_Mind
Maybe. If the messenger is completely discredited, then people might stop being concerned about the message. We are already seeing denials elsewhere, and people might think that Bannon has reasons for being less than honest. I don't think many people really know what is going on yet, which is why for me the main interest is political journalism and the public response, rather than a constitutional one.
Bannon gave his opinion (what I quoted) not facts which can be questioned (like X met Y at Z's dinner party and made a deal to sell the blueprints of THAAD missile defense system).

With facts one might say he was not being entirely honest. But negative opinions are always honest (how can a negative opinion be dishonest?)

The second most powerful person in USA between January 20, 2017 – August 18, 2017, thinks Trump is going down. He has burned his bridges with the President .. a very big step to take .. because even from outside the WH a President's friend can ask a lot of favours .. this shows that Bannon is confident that Trump is going down.

Imagine the POTUS was your friend and you burned that bridge .. so you must be very very sure of what you are doing .. one does not spite the POTUS just for the heck of it.

:namaste:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:11 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:05 pm

Bannon gave his opinion (what I quoted) not facts which can be questioned (like X met Y at Z's dinner party and made a deal to sell the blueprints of THAAD missile defense system).

With facts one might say he was not being entirely honest. But negative opinions are always honest (how can a negative opinion be dishonest?)
Easily - the expression of that opinion might not be what the person expressing it really believes.

But I'm not really interested in Bannon here - my comments were about Wolff's book, its veracity, and the responses to it.

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:13 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:20 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:48 am

If thinking that a president should be removed from office is always and invariably a partisan position then obvoiusly wolff would be deemed "partisan".

It could be that wolff thinks that the president is incompetent and should be removed from office and that it has nothing to do with the president's political motivations....in my view this is not a partisan position.....other people might weaponise it and raise a partisan issue.....
chownah
This is largely a matter of semantics. I think the meaning of "partisan", and Wolff's allegiances, are less important here than what he is up to - which seems to be a deliberate attempt to discredit Trump on a number of issues. He is doing quite well on this, particularly in that he is to some extent using Trump's own tactics, and he stands to make a lot of money out of it. I think most of his claims seem to be eminently contestable, however, and it will be interesting to see which way it develops.
I'm not sure if it is largely a matter of semantics. I think that since the book has few if any partisan handles to grasp then the partisan angle of the book becomes less important and what will be made of the book is what is left.....and surely there will be a partisan bias there in spades.

All of the claims are contestable.....and will be contested. You can bet that trump's political strategists will be or already have charted out every single claim, dissected it into as many parts as possible in as many ways as possible, studied (or are studying) every person which can be related in any way to any of the parts of every possible breakdown, and have constructed or are constructing fall back after fall back and advance after advance strategies for all of the different ways that they can possibley unfold. This is what political strategists do......I'm wondering how much artificial intelligence is being used.....doing a complete breakdown and reaction analysis for a book like this requires huge amounts of data and processing which has been usually done by humans but this kind of task might be able to be automated....maybe not yet though.....
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:30 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:13 pm
All of the claims are contestable.....and will be contested. You can bet that trump's political strategists will be or already have charted out every single claim, dissected it into as many parts as possible in as many ways as possible, studied (or are studying) every person which can be related in any way to any of the parts of every possible breakdown, and have constructed or are constructing fall back after fall back and advance after advance strategies for all of the different ways that they can possibley unfold. This is what political strategists do......I'm wondering how much artificial intelligence is being used.....doing a complete breakdown and reaction analysis for a book like this requires huge amounts of data and processing which has been usually done by humans but this kind of task might be able to be automated....maybe not yet though.....
chownah
Agreed. What I find interesting about this situation is the extent to which Trump himself will have an impact upon the strategists. There are a number of different scenarios. He might be so stupid - or so willfully unconventional and scornful of traditions here - that he dispenses with the strategists' advice, or is even unable to follow it. This would be the scenario suggested by the contents of Wolff's book. Alternatively, he might just allow them to get on with it, and follow their advice. Thirdly, he might have, or think he has, a better insight into the situation than the strategists, and do his own thing. This is what he appears to do in the cases of "Twitter diplomacy", etc., and in line with Scott Adams' view of him as a master manipulator. He seems to value his ability to be a "game changer" above a lot of the standard traditional pieties.

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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:37 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:58 am
My view is that it is wrong to let you or me or anyone else decide for voters what is useful for them to know concerning a candidate or his associates.....so I guess I'm saying it is inappropriate for you to state that there is nothing useful in the book unless you qualify this by saying that there is nothing in the book that you find useful FOR YOU.

As to what the voters find useful......isn't that what freedom of speech is all about?....you let the voters hear everything (in theory just everything that is the truth but that is difficult to monitor) and let them each sort out what they find useful.
chownah
My statement was descriptive, not prescriptive. It would indeed be inappropriate for me to say that nothing is useful in the book in a way that implies that the book should be banned/censored. Consequently, your reply is a misrepresentation of my original massage.

I also made a distinction to explain why i think nothing is useful in the book, simply by making an exception (the issue of Russia) which might have legal consequences. So i did not make an empty claim, but provided reasoning/explanation of why i view the book the way i do.

You, on the other hand, decided to overlook all of this and lecture me of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate to say!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Bannon tells all in new book about Trump

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:37 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:58 am
My view is that it is wrong to let you or me or anyone else decide for voters what is useful for them to know concerning a candidate or his associates.....so I guess I'm saying it is inappropriate for you to state that there is nothing useful in the book unless you qualify this by saying that there is nothing in the book that you find useful FOR YOU.

As to what the voters find useful......isn't that what freedom of speech is all about?....you let the voters hear everything (in theory just everything that is the truth but that is difficult to monitor) and let them each sort out what they find useful.
chownah
My statement was descriptive, not prescriptive. It would indeed be inappropriate for me to say that nothing is useful in the book in a way that implies that the book should be banned/censored. Consequently, your reply is a misrepresentation of my original massage.

I also made a distinction to explain why i think nothing is useful in the book, simply by making an exception (the issue of Russia) which might have legal consequences. So i did not make an empty claim, but provided reasoning/explanation of why i view the book the way i do.

You, on the other hand, decided to overlook all of this and lecture me of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate to say!
I have read your entire post carefully. After this reading I am even more concerned that you are trying to place yourself as the arbiter of what contents of the book are to be considered to be useful. Perhaps I simply do not understand what you are saying....I don't know.

So...rather than to continue to discuss your meaning and my understanding or lack thereof let me just ask you the question. Do you think that anyone other than individual voters should decide what things are useful or important for them to know?
chownah

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