What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

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binocular
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by binocular » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:06 pm
because defending a right need not do more about the opinion than show how it is covered by the right to express it. an atterney need not be a pedophile to defend someone who is accused of pedaphilia.
Some people interpret it that way, though. Guilty by association.
binocular wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:43 pm
Cittasanto wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:46 pm
By defending someones rights you are defending your own.
It's not clear that many people interpret this this way.
can you give an example where you are getting that impression?[/quote]
One either defends one's own rights, or one defends other people's rights. People are competitive, so one person's rights eventually necessarily compete with the rights of another person.
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Sam Vara
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:04 am

This seems to be a popular sentiment, but it doesn't seem that people in positions of power or those who aim for such positions take such things seriously.
Like most normative political theory, Mill was more concerned with what should happen rather than with what actually happens. Your unhappy experiences have little bearing on the matter.

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Cittasanto
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:48 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 am
Cittasanto wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:06 pm
because defending a right need not do more about the opinion than show how it is covered by the right to express it. an atterney need not be a pedophile to defend someone who is accused of pedaphilia.
Some people interpret it that way, though. Guilty by association.
doesnt make the attourney guilty though.
binocular wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 am
One either defends one's own rights, or one defends other people's rights. People are competitive, so one person's rights eventually necessarily compete with the rights of another person.
freedom of expression is a legal right, if someone is defending the right they are defending it for everyone, regardless of the specifics of an individual case. pushing against attempts to curtail speech is pushing against all forms of censorship that are in a similare vein.

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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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perkele
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by perkele » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:42 pm

Justsit wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:37 am
There are those who would defend to the death their own right to free speech.
That seems at least a bit more plausible to me, that people might do that.
SN 3.8 wrote: Though in thought we range throughout the world,
We'll nowhere find a thing more dear than self.
Justsit wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:37 am
Maybe stupid, maybe not.
Probably yes, I think.
SN 3.8 wrote: So, since others hold the self so dear,
He who loves himself should injure none.

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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by binocular » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:49 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm
Like most normative political theory, Mill was more concerned with what should happen rather than with what actually happens. Your unhappy experiences have little bearing on the matter.
I wouldn't call my experiences unhappy, just realistic -- but leaving those aside: If normative political theory should deal only with what should happen, rather than with what does happen (or what works), then what exactly is the use of such a theory??
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:49 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm
Like most normative political theory, Mill was more concerned with what should happen rather than with what actually happens. Your unhappy experiences have little bearing on the matter.
I wouldn't call my experiences unhappy, just realistic -- but leaving those aside: If normative political theory should deal only with what should happen, rather than with what does happen (or what works), then what exactly is the use of such a theory??
To answer your question requires me to address your first point. If you have never experienced people in positions of power behaving in the way that Mill prescribed, and tolerating and defending opinions which they disapproved of, then your account of your experiences may well be realistic, but the experiences themselves are indeed unhappy, in the sense of being hapless, unfortunate, and unfavourable. The same applies to any abstract political or civic virtue; one who has never experienced democracy, or kindness, would struggle to understand what people are talking about when they use these terms. Good normative political theory (such as Mill's) deals with what should happen, and also with what does happen. It is in part based on a wise understanding of how the world is. Such a theory would have no use if it merely enjoined certain actions or approved certain situations without an understanding of reality. Millian Liberalism does, however, which accounts for - in the terms of your original question - its continuing appeal for those who have experienced it, or can merely imagine it.

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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:12 am

But what is the appeal of saying "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
Why would anyone say such a thing??
If anything, the saying seems more like a pious exaggeration.
I tend toward what is the US is know as free speech absolutism. But I agree with you.

I might put my life at risk to defend the rights of someone I thought worthwhile. But I do politically defend the rights of political speech -- even if it sometimes goes to people that I consider dangerous. In a civil society the freedom to speak, and vote and have an influence tends to discourage people resorting to more violent means. So it does create the causes and conditions which tends to the safety and security of us all.

----- Resources on US Constitutional Law ------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... exceptions

from the US Congressional Research Service
Freedom of Speech and Press: Exceptions to the First Amendment
fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf
Unprotected Speech ......................................................................................................................... 1
Obscenity ................................................................................................................................... 2
Child Pornography ..................................................................................................................... 3
Fighting Words and True Threats .............................................................................................. 3

Protected Speech .............................................................................................................................. 5
Content-Based Restrictions ....................................................................................................... 5
Prior Restraint ............................................................................................................................ 6
Forum Doctrine ......................................................................................................................... 7
Non-Content-Based Restrictions ............................................................................................... 9
Time, Place, and Manner Restrictions ................................................................................. 9
Incidental Restrictions ....................................................................................................... 13
Commercial Speech ................................................................................................................. 14
Compelled Speech ................................................................................................................... 18
Commercial Disclosure Requirements .............................................................................. 19
Check-off Programs .......................................................................................................... 20
Defamation .............................................................................................................................. 21
Speech Harmful to Children .................................................................................................... 21
Children’s First Amendment Rights ........................................................................................ 23
Speech on Radio and Television .............................................................................................. 25
Broadcast Radio and Television ........................................................................................ 25
Cable, Satellite, and Online Radio and Television ............................................................ 26
Freedom of Speech and Government Funding ........................................................................ 27
Free Speech Rights of Government Employees and Government Contractors ....................... 30
Government Employees .................................................................................................... 30
Government Contractors ................................................................................................... 33
Symbolic Speech ..................................................................................................................... 33

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LG2V
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by LG2V » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:14 pm

It intuitively feels like a very "American" idea. It's the sort of comment that would draw admiration and reverence from both sides of the American political spectrum. That was my first take on it. But, it seems to have come from Voltaire, and earlier Europeans.

I think that I've been culturally raised to deeply respect this opinion. With that being said, I don't think I would die for anyone's words. lol.
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binocular
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am
To answer your question requires me to address your first point. If you have never experienced people in positions of power behaving in the way that Mill prescribed, and tolerating and defending opinions which they disapproved of, then your account of your experiences may well be realistic, but the experiences themselves are indeed unhappy, in the sense of being hapless, unfortunate, and unfavourable. The same applies to any abstract political or civic virtue; one who has never experienced democracy, or kindness, would struggle to understand what people are talking about when they use these terms. Good normative political theory (such as Mill's) deals with what should happen, and also with what does happen. It is in part based on a wise understanding of how the world is. Such a theory would have no use if it merely enjoined certain actions or approved certain situations without an understanding of reality. Millian Liberalism does, however, which accounts for - in the terms of your original question - its continuing appeal for those who have experienced it, or can merely imagine it.
Just letting you know I've read your reply, and that I don't know what to say.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:43 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am
To answer your question requires me to address your first point. If you have never experienced people in positions of power behaving in the way that Mill prescribed, and tolerating and defending opinions which they disapproved of, then your account of your experiences may well be realistic, but the experiences themselves are indeed unhappy, in the sense of being hapless, unfortunate, and unfavourable. The same applies to any abstract political or civic virtue; one who has never experienced democracy, or kindness, would struggle to understand what people are talking about when they use these terms. Good normative political theory (such as Mill's) deals with what should happen, and also with what does happen. It is in part based on a wise understanding of how the world is. Such a theory would have no use if it merely enjoined certain actions or approved certain situations without an understanding of reality. Millian Liberalism does, however, which accounts for - in the terms of your original question - its continuing appeal for those who have experienced it, or can merely imagine it.
Just letting you know I've read your reply, and that I don't know what to say.
Thanks for keeping me in the loop anyway. Maybe a response will suggest itself to you later!

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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:53 am

It is just rhetoric speaking in favor of freedom of speech.....it boggles my mind that many people here don't understand this.
chownah

binocular
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:27 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:53 am
It is just rhetoric speaking in favor of freedom of speech.....it boggles my mind that many people here don't understand this.
Because "just rhetoric" and "freedom of speech" fit together as well as "open heart surgery" and "suregon with dirty hands".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:35 am

It is just poetic speaking in favor of freedom of speech.....it boggles my mind that many people here don't understand this.
chownah

binocular
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:54 pm

Then let it boggle you some more, chownah.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: What's the appeal of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:06 pm

"Give me liberty or give me death"....Patrick Henry
Seems that perhaps he actually meant it.....or at least he was willing to risk death.
chownah

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