Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:57 am

Greetings,
alan wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:30 am
"Patriots vs Globalists"?
Hey Retro, I think this could be a new thread. Maybe you can start it, and explain what you mean.
The purpose of this topic is to discuss the respective merits of:

- nationism/nationalism/patriotism
- globalism

... and the extent to which this political divide could be regarded as the new alternative to the traditional left-wing / right-wing dichotomy.

I will source some resources next time I'm in front of a PC, but feel free to supply your own, and/or initiate the discussion in the meantime.

But for starters, here's a TED Talk on the subject...

https://www.ted.com/talks/yuval_noah_ha ... de/up-next

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

Post by alan » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:27 am

Every time I clicked on that, my web browser dropped out. Bad link? I'll try again tomorrow.

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Leeuwenhoek2
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So Many Globalisms-Trade, Cultural, Multi-national Corps, Migration,

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:23 am

Wow. So many Globalisms! Which one or ones were you thinking of?
Anti-globalization Movement wrote:The anti-globalization movement, or counter-globalisation movement,[1] is a social movement critical of economic globalization. The movement is also commonly referred to as the global justice movement,[2] alter-globalization movement, anti-globalist movement, anti-corporate globalization movement,[3] or movement against neoliberal globalization.
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-glob ... n_movement
Globalization wrote:Globalization (or globalisation; see spelling differences) is the increasing interaction of people, states, or countries through the growth of the international flow of money, ideas, and culture. Globalization is primarily an economic process of integration that has social and cultural aspects. It involves goods and services, and the economic resources of capital, technology, and data.

Though many scholars place the origins of globalization in modern times, others trace its history long before the European Age of Discovery and voyages to the New World, some even to the third millennium BC.
Large-scale globalization began in the 1820s.[8] In the late 19th century and early 20th century, the connectivity of the world's economies and cultures grew very quickly. The term globalization is recent, only establishing its current meaning in the 1970s.

In 2000, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) identified four basic aspects of globalization: trade and transactions, capital and investment movements, migration and movement of people, and the dissemination of knowledge.
Further, environmental challenges such as global warming, cross-boundary water, air pollution, and over-fishing of the ocean are linked with globalization. Globalizing processes affect and are affected by business and work organization, economics, socio-cultural resources, and the natural environment. Academic literature commonly subdivides globalization into three major areas: economic globalization, cultural globalization, and political globalization.
--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

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Can a Divided Country Heal - Globalism & Cultural Unity

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:50 am

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haid ... erica_heal
Video and full transcript

Social psychologist Jonathan Haidt studies the morals that form the basis of our political choices. In conversation with TED Curator Chris Anderson, he describes the patterns of thinking and historical causes that have led to such sharp divisions in America -- and provides a vision for how the country might move forward.

I've select excerpts that relate to one aspect of globalism -- immigration.
JH: So this is, I think, where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction. I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it, comes out of the labor versus capital distinction, and the working class, and Marx. But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly, is a divide in all the Western democracies between the people who want to stop at nation, the people who are more parochial -- and I don't mean that in a bad way -- people who have much more of a sense of being rooted, they care about their town, their community and their nation. And then those who are anti-parochial and who -- whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine." "Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for." And so these are the people who want more global governance, they don't like nation states, they don't like borders. You see this all over Europe as well. There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare -- writing ten years ago in Britain. He had a metaphor: "Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"

CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world -- it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?" And what you're saying is that, actually, millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly; it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.

JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here, is the issue of immigration. And I think this is where we have to look very carefully at the social science about diversity and immigration. Once something becomes politicized, once it becomes something that the left loves and the right -- then even the social scientists can't think straight about it. Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways. It clearly creates more innovation. The American economy has grown enormously from it. Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things. But what the globalists, I think, don't see, what they don't want to see, is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.

There's a very important study by Robert Putnam, the author of "Bowling Alone," looking at social capital databases. And basically, the more people feel that they are the same, the more they trust each other, the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state. Scandinavian countries are so wonderful because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries. And that leads to a progressive welfare state, a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says, "Drawbridge down! The world is a great place. People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in." And it's a beautiful thing. But if, and I was in Sweden this summer, if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct and they can't talk about the downsides, you end up bringing a lot of people in. That's going to cut social capital, it makes it hard to have a welfare state and they might end up, as we have in America, with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society. So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about. But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too, we need to be looking at.
...
JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable by saying it's not necessarily about race. It's about culture. There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner, who shows that when people have a sense that we are all united, we're all the same, there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism. Those people aren't particularly racist when they feel as through there's not a threat to our social and moral order. But if you prime them experimentally by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different, then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants. So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction. The left, following through the Lennonist line -- the John Lennon line -- does things that create an authoritarian reaction.

... But the more positive part of that is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right -- that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity, then race doesn't actually matter very much. So an assimilationist approach to immigration removes a lot of these problems. And if you value having a generous welfare state, you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haidt goes into more and different aspects of this topic in this 2016 keynote address to the APA

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Re: Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:58 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:57 am
But for starters, here's a TED Talk on the subject...

https://www.ted.com/talks/yuval_noah_ha ... de/up-next
As usual, Harari does an excellent job. He outlines the points of both and notes that many of our 21st century problems are global and that it takes a global response to deal with them.

He also talks about suffering and the sentience of animals and the difference between consciousness and intelligence and how often people confuse consciousness and intelligence as being the same thing. He has done some Goenka retreats.

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Re: Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:57 am
- nationism/nationalism/patriotism
From a Buddhist perspective, a 'nation' appears to be an extension of the community, one of the six directions (DN 31) in the Buddhist view of personal relationships & benefaction. For example, in DN 16, a community or clan (the Vajjis) appears to be called a 'nation'.
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:57 am
- globalism
As currently implemented, 'globalism' appears to be predominately based on exploitation of cheapest labour & dependent upon financial debt to uphold consumption in the more affluent nations that have lost disposable income due to unemployment, underemployment or reduction in real wages. Not paying workers adequately (DN 31) & debt bondage (AN 4.62) appear contrary to Buddhist principles; as is acting against the welfare of a nation (DN 16).
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:57 am
traditional left-wing / right-wing dichotomy.
The Old Testament of the Bible (Isaiah 61:6) refers to how the Chosen People will live off the wealth or labour of the Gentiles, which is a right-wing ideology. In general, the Old Testament of the Bible also envisages a society of the Chosen People living with equality, which is a left-wing ideology (which is contrary to Buddhism & which appeared to have inspired Marxism & Communism). Its probably about time Western 'Buddhists' abandon this Western-Judaic divisive dichotomy and, instead, take refuge in Buddhism. Yuval Noah Harari or the Buddha?

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Re: Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism

Post by Alexander____ » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:23 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:58 pm

He also talks about suffering and the sentience of animals and the difference between consciousness and intelligence and how often people confuse consciousness and intelligence as being the same thing. He has done some Goenka retreats.
He does a sixty day retreat every year.

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