Feminism for men

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chownah
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:02 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:59 am
binocular wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:29 am
Women are taught to believe that sex is worth the harmful side-effects of hormonal contraceptives and abortions. Usually not directly (although there are people who will say "No pain, no gain" in such cases), but certainly indirectly.
More bs. Women are not taught this.
We are taught that having sex even when you don't want to have children is normal. Just follow this to its logical conclusions, and consider the current state of medical technology, and you can see what follows.
The logical conclusion is that many people have sex and don't have children and many people have sex and do have children.....

You seem to think that sex is a death trap! :shrug:
You seem to be doing your best to change the topic of discussion towards some delusional alternate reality.......where people are not self realized agents are not able to learn about life and are not able to make decisions. Maybe this is how you see people....maybe this is how you see yourself.....it is not how I see people....it is not how I see myself....
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am
You seem to think that sex is a death trap!
Maybe Binocular was possibly saying there is healthy (kusala) & unhealthy (akusala) sex.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:05 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am
You seem to think that sex is a death trap!
Maybe Binocular was possibly saying there is healthy (kusala) & unhealthy (akusala) sex.
Maybe binocular is painting a delusional view of things and trying to pass it off as being the way things really are.....
chownah

Turmeric
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Turmeric » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am
You seem to think that sex is a death trap!
Maybe Binocular was possibly saying there is healthy (kusala) & unhealthy (akusala) sex.
Healthy sex being the christian view of one wife, and no sex before marriage? Before western influence in Thailand, men married up to 100 girls at one time. Kings, who were also Buddhist teachers, had harems where massive sex orgies took place with 50+ girls. One of the Thai epics, Khun Chang Khun Paen (ขุนช้างขุนแผน) is a story all Thai students read in school. It is about Khun Paen, a sorcerer, martial artist, and soldier, that used love spells taught to him by his Buddhist Ajahn to seduce women. Thai people dangle his magical amulets around their necks to this day to attract mates. They also occasionally put their menstrual blood in a boys drink, because they think it will make him fall in love. Having spoken to some Thai Ruesi and Occultists, i've been told love spells aren't even bad karma. After westerners came to Thailand, and were trying to occupy it, they were insulting the Thais sexual practices, telling them they are backwards, and using this as an excuse to take over the country. So the king began changing things to prevent the country from being occupied. But still to this day, in the villages somewhat untouched by the west, you can find sexual practices that would make a foreigners jaw drop. And in monasteries you can find Ajahns selling magical love amulets depicting women in various sexual positions, including, but not limited to, getting banged by horses. As early as the 1960s, the Thai Prime Minister Sarit Thanarat (สฤษดิ์ ธนะรัชต์) died leaving behind 100 female concubines. He was loved by HM King Bhumibol, largely considered to be one of the greatest Buddhist Kings of all time. During his funeral, King Bhumibol touched heads with Sarit, depicting his connection to the virtue of the Dhammaraj, and the picture was distributed throughout the media for 2 years. In the Thai language, you can find on the internet numerous monks defending polygamy, 15-20-25 wives at one time, and using the polygamy in the suttas as their defense. Who is to say what type of sexual preference is good or bad? Lets just try not to hurt anyone, and not be too judgmental. :namaste:

denise
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by denise » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:54 pm


binocular
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:22 pm

Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Who is to say what type of sexual preference is good or bad? Lets just try not to hurt anyone, and not be too judgmental.
The problem is when one view of sexuality becomes normative, and everyone is expected to follow it or gets stigmatized as abnormal.

- - -
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 pm
I also think once women engage in heedless (& emotionally painful) sex, their natural sexual pride makes it difficult for them to admit they make mistakes.
I don't think this necessarily has to do with pride. To think that doing what society expects one to do was a mistake is to go against the flow of society and to risk ostracism. There's a reason why "old spinster" is a pejorative term.
Fearing ostracism is more than just a matter of pride.
Women generally always want to present the image, sexually, they are attractive & doing the right thing. This is why, in my personal opinion, Feminism is so dangerous & has been so harmful; why 25% of current women over 40yo are dependent upon anti-depressants. Women struggle to admit sexual vulnerability, weakness & hurt. They generally have too much sexual pride. Ego or saving-face takes precedence over morality. This silent politically-correct Feminist conspiracy blames others rather than themselves. Women harm each other by deceiving not only themselves but also men. This is the utter & tragic failure of left-wing Feminism (imo).
I suppose there are women who have built their sense of self on feminism, so for them what you say applies.
But there are other women who feel that feminism is being forced upon them under threat of ostracism, and who give in and ostensibly become devotees of feminism for fear of what would happen if they wouldn't.

Years back, when we were teenagers, I remember some of my female peers were scared of sex, but then said, in resignation, "Well, what can you do. You just have to do it, get over with it."
Last edited by binocular on Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am
You seem to think that sex is a death trap!
Sometimes, it is.
You seem to be doing your best to change the topic of discussion towards some delusional alternate reality.......where people are not self realized agents are not able to learn about life and are not able to make decisions. Maybe this is how you see people....maybe this is how you see yourself.....it is not how I see people....it is not how I see myself....
Medical proefssionals don't think humans are self-realized agents and that instead they need to be told what to think, feel, speak, and do, like robots. And women and unborn children pay the price.

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Mr Man
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Mr Man » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:28 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm
Medical proefssionals don't think humans are self-realized agents and that instead they need to be told what to think, feel, speak, and do, like robots. And women and unborn children pay the price.
So it is not just women who are oppressing women?

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Sea Turtle
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Sea Turtle » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:16 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:22 pm
Years back, when we were teenagers, I remember some of my female peers were scared of sex, but then said, in resignation, "Well, what can you do. You just have to do it, get over with it."
Binocular, this is very regrettable. I am sorry that some of your peers had this experience.

I respect the validity of your experiences, Binocular. As a global comment, I would ask that they are framed as your experiences/points of view/perspectives, though, and not presented as the experiences of "all women in the West, etc."
binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm
Medical proefssionals don't think humans are self-realized agents and that instead they need to be told what to think, feel, speak, and do, like robots. And women and unborn children pay the price.
I'm not a licensed medical professional, but as mentioned earlier, have been a medical writer and researcher for my entire career in the USA. My concentration has been mostly in oncology and diabetes, but I've also done research and writing on both men's and women's sexual health. As part of my job, I have worked closely, at times, with a broad-spanning physician audience. I have never encountered the attitudes or ideas that you speak of, either professionally or personally. Again, this is not to say that your experiences are not valid. Just that they cannot be generalized to all medical professionals or to all women.

Wishing you the best.

:anjali:

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Aloka
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Aloka » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:46 pm

Sea Turtle wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:16 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm
Medical proefssionals don't think humans are self-realized agents and that instead they need to be told what to think, feel, speak, and do, like robots. And women and unborn children pay the price.
I'm not a licensed medical professional, but as mentioned earlier, have been a medical writer and researcher for my entire career in the USA. My concentration has been mostly in oncology and diabetes, but I've also done research and writing on both men's and women's sexual health. As part of my job, I have worked closely, at times, with a broad-spanning physician audience. I have never encountered the attitudes or ideas that you speak of, either professionally or personally. Again, this is not to say that your experiences are not valid. Just that they cannot be generalized to all medical professionals or to all women.
These attitudes are also most certainly not something I've ever experienced with the NHS here in the UK, either with my local GP, or with any of the hospital consultants I've encountered. In fact the last couple of times I visited hospital clinics I felt really happy and grateful to be able to have relaxed friendly chats as well as medical treatments, with such lovely caring professionals and their teams who certainly didn't treat me like a robot.

I'm sorry if its so different for you in your country, binocular.

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:40 pm

Aloka wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:46 pm
Sea Turtle wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:16 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm
Medical proefssionals...
medical professional...
NHS... GP... hospital
Many medical professionals are basically drug-dealers for pharmaceutical companies. Not even psychologically/pyschiatrically qualified, they give out anti-depressant prescriptions to women who ask; not even requiring the confused & suffering women to attend psychological counselling. What do most medical professionals know about psychology or dhammic well-being, anyway? Generally, not much. Recently I wrote to a cancer specialist about advising her female patient to possibly try to desist from habitual anger during her post-operative & cemo-therapy period. The medical professional wasn't really interest because, to her, the causes of cancer are all physical, genetic, etc.
Of all occupations and professions, the medical profession consistently hovers near the top of occupations with the highest risk of death by suicide. ... Depression is at least as common in the medical profession as in the general population, affecting an estimated 12% of males and up to 19.5% of females.Jun 12, 2017
Physician Suicide: Overview, Depression in Physicians, Problems ...
emedicine.medscape.com/article/806779-overview
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:06 am

Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Healthy sex being the christian view of one wife, and no sex before marriage?
This appears also the view of the Buddha, who said a woman's wish is to not share a co-wife & said the duties of parents are to arrange a suitable marriage for their children. The Buddha appeared to not encourage sex before marriage.
A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.

https://static.sirimangalo.org/pdf/bpsanguttara2.pdf
In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
Bhante, since I was young, when the young girl Nakulamātā was given to me in marriage, I do not recall ever transgressing against her even in thought, much less by deed. We wish, Bhante, to see one another not only in this present life but also in future lives.”

The housewife Nakulamātā in turn said to the Blessed One: “Bhante, since I was a young girl given to the young householder Nakulapitā in marriage, I do not recall ever transgressing against him even in thought, much less by deed. We wish, Bhante, to see one another not only in this present life but also in future lives.


https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.55
protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Before western influence in Thailand, men married up to 100 girls at one time.
The Kings of Thailand are said to be reincarnations of Vishnu. They are Hindus. Also, this delight about 100 girls sounds very Islamic.
Rama (Kings of Thailand) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_(Kings_of_Thailand)
All kings in the current Chakri dynasty of Thailand are often referred to as Rama... The name Rama was adopted from the name of the Hindu God Rama, an avatar of Vishnu.
:alien:
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Kings, who were also Buddhist teachers
No. The Kings of Thailands are said to be reincarnations of Vishnu.
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
had harems where massive sex orgies took place with 50+ girls. One of the Thai epics, Khun Chang Khun Paen (ขุนช้างขุนแผน) is a story all Thai students read in school. It is about Khun Paen, a sorcerer, martial artist, and soldier, that used love spells taught to him by his Buddhist Ajahn to seduce women. Thai people dangle his magical amulets around their necks to this day to attract mates. They also occasionally put their menstrual blood in a boys drink, because they think it will make him fall in love. Having spoken to some Thai Ruesi and Occultists, i've been told love spells aren't even bad karma.
Sure. But none of this is Buddhist. If it really happened, it is merely Thai.
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
After westerners came to Thailand, and were trying to occupy it, they were insulting the Thais sexual practices, telling them they are backwards, and using this as an excuse to take over the country.
Irrelevant. What is Thai is not necessarily Buddhist. For example, this video about Thailand does not reflect Buddhist principles. The trade or traffic in human beings is Wrong Livelihood in Buddhism.


Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison. "These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
So the king began changing things to prevent the country from being occupied. But still to this day, in the villages somewhat untouched by the west, you can find sexual practices that would make a foreigners jaw drop.
In my experience, this is false. I lived overlooking villages in Southern Thailand for a few years. Women are held to be pure mothers & matriarchs. This is why there are always local brothels. When the mothers say no sex to their husbands, some of the husbands go to the brothels.
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
And in monasteries you can find Ajahns selling magical love amulets depicting women in various sexual positions, including, but not limited to, getting banged by horses.
In the suttas, this is wrong livelihood for a monk, as follows:

Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such "animal" arts as: promising gifts to deities in return for favors; fulfilling such promises; demonology; reciting spells in earth houses [see earth skills, above]; inducing virility and impotence; preparing sites for construction; consecrating sites for construction; giving ceremonial mouthwashes and ceremonial baths; offering sacrificial fires; administering emetics, purges, purges from above, purges from below, head-purges; ear-oil, eye-drops, treatments through the nose, ointments, and counter-ointments; practicing eye-surgery [or: extractive surgery], general surgery, pediatrics; administering root-medicines and binding medicinal herbs — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from "animal" arts such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
As early as the 1960s, the Thai Prime Minister Sarit Thanarat (สฤษดิ์ ธนะรัชต์) died leaving behind 100 female concubines. He was loved by HM King Bhumibol, largely considered to be one of the greatest Buddhist Kings of all time.
During his funeral, King Bhumibol touched heads with Sarit, depicting his connection to the virtue of the Dhammaraj, and the picture was distributed throughout the media for 2 years.
Personally, I would not comment on King Bhumibol, given I have noticed a few worshippers of King Bhumibol on this forum, who obviously don't know so much about him. However, unlike King Bhumibol, people were allowed to criticize the Lord Buddha.


Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
In the Thai language, you can find on the internet numerous monks defending polygamy, 15-20-25 wives at one time, and using the polygamy in the suttas as their defense.
The Buddha never referred to polygamy as an ideal marriage arrangement (eg. AN 4.55). The Buddha said a woman's wish is to not share a co-wife (AN 6.52).
Turmeric wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Who is to say what type of sexual preference is good or bad? Lets just try not to hurt anyone, and not be too judgmental.
The Buddha taught lust is a hurtful defilement.
Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.54
202. There is no fire like lust and no crime like hatred.

251. There is no fire like lust; there is no grip like hatred; there is no net like delusion; there is no river like craving.

Dhammapada
Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning? Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion.

Fire Sermon
Having sex with people without real love, compassion & commitment creates the greatest hurt. This is why the Buddha taught:
Separation from the loved is suffering. SN 56.11
242. Unchastity is the taint in a woman.

215. From lust springs grief, from lust springs fear.

Dhammapada
The world would be a shambles, and there wouldn’t be enough room for us all in the prisons. This is the harm that comes from letting oneself go under the unruly power of sexual lust. There’d be no such word as ‘enough’, and no doubt but that dogs in heat would be no match for us.

Dogs have no sense of limits when lust takes over. They can go anywhere at all with no fear of death, no concern for hunger or thirst at all.
They run wild, without a thought for their owners. At most, they may stop by their homes for a moment. If anyone feeds them in time, they
eat. If not, they’re off and running. And look at them. What do they look like at times like this? Ears torn, mouths torn, legs torn, stomachs ripped
open in some cases, all from the fights they get into. Some of them die, some of them go crazy, some of them never return home.
When animals get going like this under the power of lust, this is the sort of harm it leads to. When the season comes, males and females go running wild after one another. The fires of lust and anger get burning together and can consume everything. This is what happens when animals know no bounds, that is, when their lust knows no limits. They suffer so much pain, so much distress when the disease of lust flares up – so much so that some of them die or are crippled for life.

If we human beings didn’t have the Dhamma of fewness of wants as brakes on our wheels for our own safety’s sake, we’d know no limits in
following our instincts either. We’d cause much more harm and destruction to one another than animals do, because of our intelligence. If we’re
intelligent in the right way, it’s an honour and a benefit to ourselves, our family and nation, but this human intelligence of ours is something that
lends itself to all sorts of uses, and for the most part, if our minds are low, it becomes a tool for doing a great deal of evil. It’s because of our
intelligence that we human beings can do one another so much harm. This is why we need moral virtue as a guide, as protection, so that
we can live together happily and in peace. Between husbands and wives this means being faithful to each other. Don’t go looking for scraps and
leftovers like our friends in August and September. That’s not the sort of policy that human beings – who know enough to have a sense of right
and wrong, good and bad – should put into practice. Otherwise we’ll destroy, or at the very least reduce, the honour of our human status.
Worse than that, we’ll ruin ourselves to the point of having absolutely no worth.



http://dhammatalks.net/Books2/Maha_Boow ... _Worth.pdf
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:52 am, edited 11 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Bundokji
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:27 am

I think its difficult to tell to what extent acknowledging a problem exacerbates it instead of solving it. Or to put it differently, to what extent perceiving a phenomena as a problem, makes it a problem?

To be more clear, i think the sexual behavior of men towards women has its roots in our evolutionary history, and i think the worst rapist in today's standard might not be worse than the normal behavior few centuries ago or might even be seen as a gentleman in comparison! And yet, the complaining is increasing, not decreasing.

What is that really changed? is it men, that all of the sudden, became sexual beasts? or is it that many expressions of sexual desires of men towards women started to viewed as inappropriate?

Is it a coincident that Sweden, the most feminist country in the world, has the highest rape rate per capita? are men really out of control there, or is it women who started to view and interpret many incidents as rape?

Are women completely opposed to forced sex? What does our fantasies say about our evolutionary history and the sexual behavior of men and women?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/al ... -fantasies

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:33 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:26 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 am
You seem to think that sex is a death trap!
Sometimes, it is.
You seem to be doing your best to change the topic of discussion towards some delusional alternate reality.......where people are not self realized agents are not able to learn about life and are not able to make decisions. Maybe this is how you see people....maybe this is how you see yourself.....it is not how I see people....it is not how I see myself....
Medical proefssionals don't think humans are self-realized agents and that instead they need to be told what to think, feel, speak, and do, like robots. And women and unborn children pay the price.
....only in a delusional alternate reality......total bs.....
chownah

binocular
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:59 pm

Sea Turtle wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:16 pm
I'm not a licensed medical professional, but as mentioned earlier, have been a medical writer and researcher for my entire career in the USA. My concentration has been mostly in oncology and diabetes, but I've also done research and writing on both men's and women's sexual health. As part of my job, I have worked closely, at times, with a broad-spanning physician audience. I have never encountered the attitudes or ideas that you speak of, either professionally or personally. Again, this is not to say that your experiences are not valid. Just that they cannot be generalized to all medical professionals or to all women.
Actually, most of what I said has nothing to do with my personal experience or the state of the world or any particular part thereof, but was an extrapolation from some often-heard claims that are generally considered non-controversial, such as the claim that it is normal to have sex even when you don't want to have children. I focused on the non-controversial claims and the extrapolations precisely because I wanted to avoid the idea that what I'm saying is just my personal bias.

Many non-controversial claims, when followed to their logical conclusions, can turn out to be really ugly.

- - -
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:28 pm
So it is not just women who are oppressing women?
The oppression of women is a complex, systematic phenomenon; and complex, systematic phenomena don't just happen over night, or as the actions of just one side. Women are accomplices in their own oppression, primarily by indulging in sentimentality, romanticism, and martyrdom, which makes them easy targets for abuse.

- - -
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:40 pm
Many medical professionals are basically drug-dealers for pharmaceutical companies.
And at least in some countries, they have a legally prescribed amount of time for seeing their patients. Here, this is 8 minutes; 8 minutes for greeting, discussing, the physical exam, reading the medical history, writing prescriptions, everything. My GP used to have a chess watch on his desk to measure the time.

Anyway, I don't want to tie this to specific empirical situations, because then it's easy to detract from the main argument.
Last edited by binocular on Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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