Feminism for men

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Stiphan
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Feminism for men

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am

I am deeply concerned about the various issues and struggles that women and girls face on a daily basis and I want them to achieve emancipation and equality and equity. I don't know if that automatically makes me a feminist, but I should perhaps do more than just feel concern. Perhaps speaking up or writing on these issues would help inspire other men to do the same but, other than that, is there anything else I could do to help women and girls towards the achievement of equality and the other aims of feminism?

Also, it's not as if I am neglecting male rights, but let's face it - females have it much harder than us, their rights are nowhere near ours, they face discrimination and sexism, are being raped and physically and domestically assaulted, earn less on average, etc etc... I think that this state of affairs is horrendous and I can't stand not doing something about it.

May all females and males be happy and safe.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:18 am

Greetings,

Rather than divide up things by gender, I'm more inclined towards egalitarianism.

May all beings be happy.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:18 am
Greetings,

Rather than divide up things by gender, I'm more inclined towards egalitarianism.

May all beings be happy.

Metta,
Paul. :)
That's great, but does it address the issues females face other than the goal of equality? I think you can combine both, though, and you could also add men's rights and you have a "full house".

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:31 am

Greetings Stiphan,
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am
That's great, but does it address the issues females face other than the goal of equality?
Which goals... supremacy?!

:o

:tongue:
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am
I think you can combine both, though, and you could also add men's rights and you have a "full house".
It's true that there are arguably different challenges facing females, males, and others, but I don't think making issues "gendered" adds anything constructive.

For example, Domestic Violence is bad. I don't think anyone would disagree, but many would try to construct it as a gender issue, when it doesn't need to be one. I find this video succinctly addresses the matter of domestic violence, but could also be extrapolated to cover many other issues and causes of suffering... (apologies it's in Facebook, I couldn't find it elsewhere)



Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:58 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am
I am deeply concerned about the various issues and struggles that women and girls face on a daily basis and I want them to achieve emancipation and equality and equity. I don't know if that automatically makes me a feminist, but I should perhaps do more than just feel concern. Perhaps speaking up or writing on these issues would help inspire other men to do the same but, other than that, is there anything else I could do to help women and girls towards the achievement of equality and the other aims of feminism?
My suggestion is to read Chapter 37 of the Samyutta Nikaya, which explains the kamma-vipaka of women is equal to men. In other words, women who do bad kamma equally reap states of deprivation. Buddhism teaches kammic equality.

For example, AN 4.53 teaches a good hearted woman who has a relationshp with a bad dishonest man will suffer due to her foolish kamma: https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.53
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am
Also, it's not as if I am neglecting male rights, but let's face it - females have it much harder than us, their rights are nowhere near ours, they face discrimination and sexism, are being raped and physically and domestically assaulted, earn less on average, etc etc... I think that this state of affairs is horrendous and I can't stand not doing something about it.
Women generally have strong needs for affection & commitment in relationship and face being sexually taken advantage of by lustful men who enter relationships with women without commitment.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am
May all females and males be happy and safe.
Rape & domestic violence are not rare. However, what happens more often is the sexual objectification of women, i.e., taking advantage of women sexually while not offering relationship comitment, such as wishing to have a 5 year relationship & then leaving the women some money as compensation for her heartbreak & sexual favours.

In conclusion, Buddhism does not teach feminism because feminism is a doctrine of economic & political equality, which is not related to Buddhism. Buddhism teaches morality (sila), to both men & women. :candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:31 am
Greetings Stiphan,
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am
That's great, but does it address the issues females face other than the goal of equality?
Which goals... supremacy?!

:o

:tongue:
Safety and security to name one.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am
I think you can combine both, though, and you could also add men's rights and you have a "full house".
It's true that there are arguably different challenges facing females, males, and others, but I don't think making issues "gendered" adds anything constructive.

For example, Domestic Violence is bad. I don't think anyone would disagree, but many would try to construct it as a gender issue, when it doesn't need to be one. I find this video succinctly addresses the matter of domestic violence, but could also be extrapolated to cover many other issues and causes of suffering... (apologies it's in Facebook, I couldn't find it elsewhere)



Metta,
Paul. :)
Women face far more suffering, especially at the hands of men, than the other way around. You don't know what rape is. I don't either, and few men do - only those who've been raped by other men, but every time I hear about a girl being raped.. it's just I can't even put it into words, how disgusting that is.

Paid less for equal work, made to look after kids 24/7 and clean and wash and cook and please their man and then to be looked down on just for being female and thought of as inferior, and then to constantly look behind their back for fear of being raped... And that's just a small sample of feminist issues. When you look at it, I think even though we are not undergoing the same troubles, we have to be empathetic, stand up and say "That's wrong." and then help them out in whatever way we can. I'm just asking - especially women - how I can be of help.

Both genders suffer but women are suffering far more so a focus on that fact and a desire to help is worth it. Therefore the feminist cause is a good cause and it doesn't hurt men's rights, or if it does it should be altered.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:06 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Women face far more suffering, especially at the hands of men, than the other way around. You don't know what rape is. I don't either, and few men do - only those who've been raped by other men, but every time I hear about a girl being raped.. it's just I can't even put it into words, how disgusting that is.
Rape is one type of evil but having sex with women without compassion is another type of evil. Heartbreak is a very serious type of suffering. Be careful to not use "rape" as "virtue-signalling", which means to assert rape is the only sexually related harm that can be done to a woman.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Paid less for equal work, made to look after kids 24/7
In ordinary standard jobs (i.e. apart from high level privately negotiated employment contracts), men & women get paid the same. Women are often viewed as earning less money because they do less work, i.e., work part-time. Women receive far more govt benefits than men. As for children, this is something women choose to do. The Buddha taught having children is the mainstay for women. Most women want to have children. Most mothers regard their children has the best thing in their life. Buddhism does not teach feminism that asserts motherhood is oppressive & evil. While Buddhism does not discourage women gaining spiritual independence (such as ordaining as a bhikkhuni), Buddhism also does not disparage motherhood.
“And what Master Gotama, is a woman’s aim?”

“A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.”

AN 6:52 https://static.sirimangalo.org/pdf/bpsanguttara2.pdf
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:14 am

Greetings Stiphan,
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Safety and security to name one.
... which of course is not in any way specific to females.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Women face far more suffering, especially at the hands of men, than the other way around.
... and this would be proveable how exactly?
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
You don't know what rape is. I don't either, and few men do - only those who've been raped by other men, but every time I hear about a girl being raped.. it's just I can't even put it into words, how disgusting that is.
Why not just settle for "rape is wrong"? What does gendering the issue do, other than diminish the plight of those who don't fall in the targeted gender of your sympathies? The brahma-viharas are universal, yes?
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Paid less for equal work
A feminist talking point which has been debunked by economists, when factoring in lifestyle choices - not that this has stopped authoritarians from trying to interfere with the labour market and company hiring policies.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
made to look after kids 24/7 and clean and wash and cook and please their man and then to be looked down on just for being female and thought of as inferior
Who makes anyone do that? Are you sure you aren't just endulging in and propagating crass stereotypes here?
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
When you look at it, I think even though we are not undergoing the same troubles, we have to be empathetic, stand up and say "That's wrong." and then help them out in whatever way we can. I'm just asking - especially women - how I can be of help.
Again, I struggle to see how making any of that a gendered issue helps. More males commit suicide than females, but do we do anyone any favours if we deliberately frame and target anti-suicide measures in a way that consciously leaves females out of the picture? Again, the brahma-viharas are universal, yes?
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Both genders suffer but women are suffering far more so a focus on that fact and a desire to help is worth it. Therefore the feminist cause is a good cause and it doesn't hurt men's rights, or if it does it should be altered.
Again, there's nothing really substantiable here. What is known is that
gains in women’s rights haven't made women happier. Why is that?


... so I'd be very wary of suggesting that feminism (in contrast to egalitarianism) is actually reducing dukkha. Evidence from recent decades suggests otherwise...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by befriend » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am

alot of women get paid less for having the exact same job as a man. This is a gender issue.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:02 am

befriend wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am
alot of women get paid less for having the exact same job as a man. This is a gender issue.
Concrete examples, please? I personally have never been employed in a job where women were paid less than me. I have worked many jobs, such as:

1. Packing shelves in supermarket

2. Bar-tending

3. Retail shop-assistant

4. Retail manager for large company, with many managers & levels of management

5. Various roles in insurance companies

6. Various roles in government

Everyone gets paid exactly the same, at least in Australia.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by befriend » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:06 am

Its kind of common knowledge
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:07 am

Greetings Befriend,
befriend wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am
Its kind of common knowledge
Moreso, it's kind of wrong.

Don't Buy Into The Gender Pay Gap Myth

As for the social engineering involved in pandering to this myth...

It is costing us $6m to ‘solve’ gender pay gap myth

And for anyone who think it's relevant (clue: it's not), both articles were written by women.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:14 am
Again, there's nothing really substantiable here. What is known is that
gains in women’s rights haven't made women happier. Why is that?


... so I'd be very wary of suggesting that feminism (in contrast to egalitarianism) is actually reducing dukkha. Evidence from recent decades suggests otherwise...
If find media links, like the following, match my personal experience of life, including family members. :|

Read more:
http://www.womansday.com/health-fitness ... -in-women/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/ ... _n_1098023
https://healthywildandfree.com/25-of-am ... d-to-know/
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
Therefore the feminist cause is a good cause...
For me, feminism is a noisy but silent conspiracy by certain women against other women. I think this is well epitomized by the famous Australian radical feminist Germaine Greer, who experienced a suffering that is a "cross-roads" in the life of many young women I have personally known, which Germaine appeared unable to recover from with wholeness, but, instead, pursued a path of anger & bitterness of a woman scorned. For me, feminism is not for men because it misguides men. Feminism does not have a vision of morality. It gives men the idea that women can easily go from sexual encounter to sexual encounter equally as men can do & remain relatively unaffected by such sexual adventuring, which is simply not true in my experience. Look what became of this heart-broken teenage girl. :|
Later, after being being rejected by a man she really cared about, "Germaine's slide into depression" is said to have become "a headlong plunge. She broke down. She was hospitalised, diagnosed with nervous exhaustion."

https://bluepages.anu.edu.au/index.php? ... aine-greer

Germaine Greer 'didn't understand women'

GERMAINE Greer was wrong about women: wrong about their attitude to romance, about how they would wield power, and how they would organise things, if allowed to rule to world.

Most of all, however, she was wrong about their desire for what she called "fripperies" -- shoes, pretty clothes, and make-up -- which they indulge in now more than ever.

These are the conclusions of the writer Louis Nowra in an essay in the independent The Monthly magazine marking the 40th anniversary of the publication of Dr Greer's seminal feminist text, The Female Eunuch.

The book, published in Australia in May 1970, and in London in October 1970, was a key text of the women's liberation movement. It has never been out of print, and has been translated into 11 languages. Sales figures are difficult to find, but they are in the millions. Dr Greer was in Sydney for the Writers' Festival last May and all her shows were sold out.

Nowra, an essayist and playwright, argues that Dr Greer must, however, be disappointed in the world of contemporary women, for it does not resemble the model she envisioned. Women are, for the most part, married, and have children. They live in nuclear families, in the suburbs. Their orientation is capitalist.

Nowra's critique of Dr Greer neither starts nor ends with The Female Eunuch, however. He says Dr Greer is now a "befuddled and exhausted old woman" who reminds him of his demented grandmother. "There is no doubt that fame and celebrity have seduced Greer," he writes. "She will say and do anything to get noticed."

Moreover, she is dull, her prose is dreary, and her mind is coarse.

He says it's pathetic that she has, in recent years, appeared on "cheap, often degrading" reality shows, and it seems she will now do "anything for attention".

His main point, however, is that women have not developed in the ways that Dr Greer imagined, and neither has the world.

"Her notion that women would use power differently from men was hopelessly idealistic.

"In the future society of Greer's fantasy, there would be no hierarchies, and women would bond to create peace and undermine the capitalist system."

In fact, he argues, women today "love shopping more than ever" and Botox injections, to smooth their wrinkles, have become a rite of passage. He says Dr Greer failed to understand the "potency of romance" for women.

Nowra concedes that the book "changed many women's lives dramatically" and that "countless" women read it, and left their husbands. But he says re-reading The Female Eunuch is "like opening a time capsule". "One is immediately struck by how much the Western world has changed for women," he says. It's just not in the way Dr Greer imagined.

"Our contemporary world must come as a disappointment to her." Her exhortation to women not to marry hasn't been taken up, and rather than opting out of their role as consumers they love shopping more than ever.

Dr Greer wanted women to give up the "fripperies". Nowra argues that this "reveals her misunderstanding of women's desires and urge for self-fulfilment".

Dr Greer believed children could be raised as friends and neighbours, and didn't need to know who their "womb-mothers" were, but this communal vision, this "New Left hippie ideology" never came to pass. He says her "methods for change are so vague as to be meaningless".

The editor of The Monthly Ben Naparstek said he asked Nowra rather than a woman to write about The Female Eunuch and Dr Greer because he is one of the country's leading public intellectuals. "The fact that Louis is a man seemed irrelevant. I see political correctness as the enemy of intelligent debate," he said.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... f89671a24f
After 45 years, exactly the same as the old video from 1971, in 2015, she says she still does not know what the 'female liberation' she promotes is.



Contrary to what she said in the video, I am an "anti-feminist" but I rarely associate with men. Most of my social interactions are with women.

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Justsit » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:39 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:02 am
Everyone gets paid exactly the same, at least in Australia.
Perhaps true in Australia, but the pay gap persists in the US, although data indicates it is improving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pa ... ted_States
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... gap-facts/
https://iwpr.org/issue/employment-educa ... imination/
https://www.aauw.org/research/the-simpl ... r-pay-gap/

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Justsit » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:19 am
For me, feminism is a noisy but silent conspiracy by certain women against other women. I think this is well epitomized by the famous Australian radical feminist Germaine Greer, who experienced a suffering that is a "cross-roads" in the life of many young women I have personally known, which Germaine appeared unable to recover from with wholeness, but, instead, pursued a path of anger & bitterness of a woman scorned. For me, feminism is not for men because it misguides men. Feminism does not have a vision of morality. It gives men the idea that women can easily go from sexual encounter to sexual encounter equally as men can do & remain relatively unaffected by such sexual adventuring, which is simply not true in my experience. Look what became of this heart-broken teenage girl. :|
I think a lot depends on how one defines "feminism." To me, it means equal rights and treatment under the law, and equal opportunity in daily life. And yes, that means unmarried women are free to have sexual encounters if they so choose - broken hearts or no.

Your point of view comes from a man, so of course it cannot accurately describe the actual lived experience of women. My experience as a woman was completely different from what you describe, and mine may be different from that of other women. However, despite the differences, men and women have a common humanity, which is the basis for our equality and mutual respect. And for the women I know - feminists or not - that is the bottom line.

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