Feminism for men

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Sea Turtle
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Sea Turtle » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:06 pm

Justsit wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 pm
Your point of view comes from a man, so of course it cannot accurately describe the actual lived experience of women. My experience as a woman was completely different from what you describe, and mine may be different from that of other women. However, despite the differences, men and women have a common humanity, which is the basis for our equality and mutual respect. And for the women I know - feminists or not - that is the bottom line.
:goodpost:

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:33 pm

Justsit wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 pm
Your point of view comes from a man, so of course it cannot accurately describe the actual lived experience of women.
Sorry. My person experience as a 'man' is equally valid (although I regard it objectively as more valid) because I am one party in relationship with women & have my personal moral responsibility towards that sense experience & interaction. I have found in my life that my person intentions towards women are often more wholesome or beneficial than women's intentions towards themselves. I have met many women who are willing to simply throw themselves impulsively into a sexual interaction; gambling it might possibly work out; without any kind of forethought about the suitability of the interaction or its future consequences. In other words, I generally do not take very seriously the views of women whose minds are controlled by need, craving & saving-face; just as I would not take very seriously the pro-drug views of a drug addict towards drugs as "the actual lived experience of drug addicts". At least to me, what you posted above is sexist, in claiming a view from a man cannot accurately describe the actual lived experience of women. From a Buddhist perspective, as I have already suggested, any mind hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving unlikely views thing accurately.
Justsit wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 pm
My experience as a woman was completely different from what you describe, and mine may be different from that of other women. However, despite the differences, men and women have a common humanity, which is the basis for our equality and mutual respect. And for the women I know - feminists or not - that is the bottom line.
Buddhism (rather than Feminism) teaches about moral respect (non-harming) towards all beings. Buddhism lists certain behaviours as unskilful (harmful) & others as skilful (beneficial), which Feminism does not share. Buddhism already provides extensive guidance for men about how they should view & relate to women. General, rhetorical & left-wing ideas about "common humanity", whatever this is supposed to mean, is unrelated to anything Buddhist I am aware of (apart from living according to the 'Golden Rule', as found in SN 55.7). About "humanity", the Pali suttas say:
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak.

SN 56.47
Where there remains "mutual devouring", i.e., men & women selfishly using each other without proper mutual consideration; men & women driven by craving rather than guided by compassion; this is not "common humanity" according to Buddhism.

In short, I think what is essential about this topic is: "Buddhism for men" rather than "Feminism for men". I simply just cannot discern how a Buddhist would take refuge in Feminism instead of taking refuge in Buddhism. :shrug:

Kind regards
Master Bharadvaja, what is the cause and reason why these young bhikkhus, lads with black hair, endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life, who have not dallied with sensual pleasures, lead the complete and pure holy life all their lives and maintain it continuously?

Great king, this was said by the Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One: ‘Come, bhikkhus, towards women old enough to be your mother set up the idea that they are your mother; towards those of an age to be your sisters set up the idea that they are your sisters; towards those young enough to be your daughters set up the idea that they are your daughters.’ This is a cause and reason, great king, why these young bhikkhus … lead the complete and pure holy life all their lives and maintain it continuously.

Magnificent, Master Bharadvaja! Magnificent, Master Bharadvaja! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Bharadvaja, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. Master Bharadvaja, I go for refuge to the Blessed One, and to the Dhamma, and to the Bhikkhu Saṅgha. From today let Master Bharadvaja remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.127
:anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Justsit
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Justsit » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:31 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:33 pm
I have met many women who are willing to simply throw themselves impulsively into a sexual interaction; gambling it might possibly work out; without any kind of forethought about the suitability of the interaction or its future consequences.

So what? Men do that all the time.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:33 pm
In short, I think what is essential about this topic is: "Buddhism for men" rather than "Feminism for men". I simply just cannot discern how a Buddhist would take refugeinFeminism instead of taking refuge in Buddhism.
You are free to think that, obviously.
However, the OP decided the topic of this thread is how men can be supportive of feminism. if they so choose.

Did anyone mention "taking refuge in feminism??"

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:49 pm

Justsit wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:31 pm
So what? Men do that all the time.
So what? If women do the same things as (ignorant) men do all the time, is this equality? Personally, I rarely associate with men. I think it is important to keep in mind that lots of the Feminism of the 1960s was about this, namely, if men can do drugs, drink alcohol & sleep around, women should also be able to do these things without criticism & social stigma. Personally, I just can't see how this is related to Buddhism because Buddhism teaches both men & women ideally should engage in wholesome behaviors that don't lead to rebirth in hell & other lower realms.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:33 pm
However, the OP decided the topic of this thread is how men can be supportive of feminism. if they so choose.
For me, the OP (unintentionally) engaged in Virtue Signalling; by highlighting only certain sufferings peculiar to women as the rationale that this represents a complete love for women. Rape is against the law & has generally always been against the law. In fact, before Feminism, the death penalty often existed in the USA for the crime of rape. However, I heard (confirmation needed) some Feminists (such as current US Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg) worked to reduce the criminal penalty for rape because it belittled women. For example, article here about a related matter:
I have never alleged that Ginsburg morally condoned pedophilia. Indeed, in pointing out that she advocated legislative changes that would have reduced the age of consent for statutory rape under federal law from 16 to 12, I have acknowledged the possibility that her recommendation may have been reckless rather than intentional. Let’s not lose sight of the broader picture. As one would expect from a longtime ACLU activist, Ginsburg, at the time that she was nominated to the Court, had a record of extremist constitutional and policy views that placed her on the far left fringes of American society.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-mem ... -ed-whelan
I found it, where alleged feminist reduced the legal kamma-vipaka of the crime of rape:
Sixteen years later, during the confirmation hearings upon her appointment to the Supreme Court, Ruth Bader Ginsburg discussed her amicus curiae brief in the case and her continued support for the decision reached in Coker v. Georgia. The death penalty for rape, she said:

Where there was no death or serious permanent injury apart from the obvious psychological injury--that . . . was disproportionate for this reason: The death penalty for rape historically was part of a view of woman as belonging to the man, as first her father's possession. If she were raped before marriage, she was damaged goods . . . And if she were a married woman and she were raped, again, she would be regarded as damaged goods.

We've seen . . . in many places in the world, where women in Bangladesh, for example, were discarded, were treated as worthless because they had been raped. And that was what Coker against Georgia came out of, and that's the whole thrust of [my] brief, that this was made punishable by death because man's property had been taken from him because of the rape of the woman . . .


Read more: Coker v. Georgia - Ginsburg Revisits Her Brief - Rape, Death, Penalty, and Raped - JRank Articles http://law.jrank.org/pages/23555/Coker- ... z51eH8O0Vn
Do we really believe the Feminism supported sexual revolution, which includes the growth in widespread public pornography, does not contribute to the incidences of rape? I am deluded to discern Feminism is loaded with so many inherent contradictions? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Aloka
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Aloka » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:04 pm

Sea Turtle wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:06 pm
Justsit wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 pm
Your point of view comes from a man, so of course it cannot accurately describe the actual lived experience of women. My experience as a woman was completely different from what you describe, and mine may be different from that of other women. However, despite the differences, men and women have a common humanity, which is the basis for our equality and mutual respect. And for the women I know - feminists or not - that is the bottom line.
:goodpost:

:anjali:
:goodpost:

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:18 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:18 pm
Aloka wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:04 pm
Sea Turtle wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:06 pm
:goodpost:
:goodpost:
:goodpost:
Image :focus:

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:18 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am
... is there anything else I could do to help women and girls towards the achievement of equality and the other aims of feminism?
A somewhat technical point not addressed so far:
The "aims of feminism" phrase is a loaded one. What is called feminism is quite diverseness in aims and methods to achieve those aims. It's more realistic to speak of various feminisms. So talk of the aims of feminisms is a kind of intellectual trojan horse IMO.
  • I remember talking with my granny years ago about her memories of getting the vote and growing up during WW I and the "roaring 20s'". Granny considered herself a feminist but was quick to say that she often didn't hold with the feminist views she saw reported in the media. Many women will not identify themselves as feminists without first explaining that they are uncomfortable with the label because they want to distance themselves from many popular expressions of feminism.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 am
... I think that this state of affairs is horrendous and I can't stand not doing something about it.
Bears a resemblance to
"I think that this state of suffering in life is horrendous and I can't stand not doing something about it."
A guy named Gotama said something like that. He spent years before arriving at a something-to-do-about-it that worked for him and others. His solution was targeted at all human beings.
Last edited by Leeuwenhoek2 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

chownah
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by chownah » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:02 am
befriend wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am
alot of women get paid less for having the exact same job as a man. This is a gender issue.
Concrete examples, please?

Everyone gets paid exactly the same, at least in Australia.
Australia is home to a very very small percent of the earth's working population.
Concrete example: work in harvesting rice.....used to be pretty much universal that women would get less but it seems to have improved somewhat and now many times there is pay parity.
chownah

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Re: Feminism for men

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:28 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
and also https://suttacentral.net/en/sa71
man and woman are fabricated. if you want to be a good feminist practice loving kindness
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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:34 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:28 am
man and woman are fabricated.
Where do these teachings say this?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:42 am

Greetings DooDoot,

I don't believe they do say it.

That said, there are suttas such as AN 7:48 - Saññoga Sutta, which encourage transcendence of femininity and masculinity.

Unlike the abomination of Cultural Marxism, the Dhamma doesn't suggest that gender is made up social construct, moreover that one should not be in bondage to one's gender, sexual preferences, pride or lust.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:26 am

Thank you Retrofuturist

I am inclined to support your reading or interpretation. My reading is the suttas appear to be saying:

(i) womenhood (female biology) is not an inherent obstacle to concentration & enlightenment and;

(ii) not having attachment or "I-making" towards feminine & masculine faculties or elements is the key issue for liberation.

I agree the suttas do not support Cultural Marxism or the idea of a Genderless Vinaya. I think it is quite obvious in the natural biological world there is gender & gender related predispositions (due to chemicals, hormones, brain matter, reproductive organs & roles, etc).

Regards :)
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:32 am

Greetings,

Well said DooDoot.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SamKR
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by SamKR » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:02 am

I don't understand retro's logic. But I agree with the OP; I have had the same view for a long time as a male that grew up in an underdeveloped South Asian country. There certainly are classes of people who are dominated by people of other classes. For example, females, black people, so called lower caste people, etc. I just cannot understand how people can just dismiss these things. :?

chownah
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Re: Feminism for men

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:34 am
Sovatthika wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:28 am
man and woman are fabricated.
Where do these teachings say this?
Aren't all conditioned dhammas fabricated?
chownah

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