Trump. And why I hate him.

If you wish to raise new topics on News, Current Events & Politics, please do so at Dhamma Wheel Engaged.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21877
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:36 pm

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:44 am
manas wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:27 pm
Trump has many faults, but how about this for cold callousness? Would you have wanted someone who joked and laughed about a brutal murder, to be President?

yyyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM
Just an explanation for everyone. This post is an example of a propogandistic technique which is being used alot these days by trump supporters (and others as well). It is called the "whatabout". It works like this. When someone is explaining what they think is wrong about trump or his policies the trump supporter will say "well what about thus and so....". This moves the conversation away from trumps faults and onto some elses faults. It is a way to dodge the issue by changing the discussion to another issue.
chownah
Your uncharitable accusations of "whataboutism" are baseless.

Manas is clearly no fan of Trump either, so is not trying distract and "dodge the issue by changing the discussion to another issue". Rather, I see that he's holding two different people to the same set of standards, as anyone should do if they're not partisan, biased or one-sided.

When a lack of partisanship results in being on the end of baseless accusations of "whataboutism", that's pretty sad!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21877
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:52 pm

Greetings,

Some posts which were getting increasingly irrelevant to Alan's hatred of Donald Trump have been moved to Wars & International Geopolitics. If anyone can think of a better name for the topic, please let me know.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3430
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Mr Man » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:53 pm
So there is nothing to support the idea that the US govt. was funding ISIS when Trump became president and that Trump stopped that funding?
Nothing in what I posted from mainstream news articles: :shrug:
Trump Ends Covert Aid to Syrian Rebels Trying to Topple Assad

President Trump has ended the clandestine American program to provide arms and supplies to Syrian rebel groups, American officials said, a recognition that the effort was failing and that the administration has given up hope of helping to topple the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

The decision came more than a month ago, the officials said, by which time the effort to deliver the arms had slowed to a trickle.

It was never publicly announced, just as the beginnings of the program four years ago were officially a secret, authorized by President Barack Obama through a “finding” that permitted the C.I.A. to conduct a deniable program. News of the troublesome program soon leaked out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/worl ... ebels.html
Trump 'ends programme to arm anti-Assad rebels' in move sought by Russia

'I think Putin will be thrilled' said one analyst

Donald Trump has reportedly decided to end the US’s funding and training of so-called moderate Syrian rebels opposed to Bashar al-Assad - something that has long been requested by Moscow.

The plan to train and equip rebels opposed to Mr Assad was started in 2013 under the administration of Barack Obama, as an effort to try and put pressure on the Syrian leader to step aside. While most of the heavy weapons and cash were provided by Saudi Arabia, the CIA took the lead in the training.

Now, it has been reported that Mr Trump has decided to cancel the programme, something that will likely be welcomed by Russia, which has for years supported the Assad regime.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 49971.html
ISIS DooDoot. Perhaps you can highlight in were it talks about Obama funding ISIS and then Trump stopping the funding to ISIS.

alan
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:59 am


chownah
Posts: 8466
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:36 pm
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:44 am
manas wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:27 pm
Trump has many faults, but how about this for cold callousness? Would you have wanted someone who joked and laughed about a brutal murder, to be President?

yyyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM
Just an explanation for everyone. This post is an example of a propogandistic technique which is being used alot these days by trump supporters (and others as well). It is called the "whatabout". It works like this. When someone is explaining what they think is wrong about trump or his policies the trump supporter will say "well what about thus and so....". This moves the conversation away from trumps faults and onto some elses faults. It is a way to dodge the issue by changing the discussion to another issue.
chownah
Your uncharitable accusations of "whataboutism" are baseless.

Manas is clearly no fan of Trump either, so is not trying distract and "dodge the issue by changing the discussion to another issue". Rather, I see that he's holding two different people to the same set of standards, as anyone should do if they're not partisan, biased or one-sided.

When a lack of partisanship results in being on the end of baseless accusations of "whataboutism", that's pretty sad!

Metta,
Paul. :)
Fact is that the post is indeed a good example of whataboutism.....it turns out that the author did not intend it to be taken that way but in fact it is a quintessential example of whataboutism. I pointed out that the post is an example of whataboutism....this is not baseless...I presented a link explaining what whataboutism is about.

Your uncharitable characterization of my post as being an "accusation" and as being "uncharitable" is baseless.
chownah

This paragraph is not a reply to retrofuturist: People, If we want to think about "uncharitable accusations" then why not look at the sound bite video which has been evidently fallaciously presented as being hillary's response to khadafi's death and call it out for what it is. This "uncharitable (and false) accusation" actually helped trump win the election!.....I think this is a much more important thing to consider than the baseless accusations made against me.
chownah

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21877
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:40 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:36 am
...it turns out that the author did not intend it to be taken that way but in fact it is a quintessential example of whataboutism.
How can something be "a quintessential example" of something it isn't?

:shrug:

Oh well... back to hating on Trump.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

alan
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:56 am

Decent people should hate him. It's your job to make things better. Allowing this Crazy Man to rule is like running away and hiding. I will not run away. I will not hide. This God Dam Crazy Man needs to be fought. I will fight. And those who support him need to be called out. Because Trump is a God Dam Crazy Man.

Hoelzle/Schiff 2020. Make America Sane Again.

chownah
Posts: 8466
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:40 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:36 am
...it turns out that the author did not intend it to be taken that way but in fact it is a quintessential example of whataboutism.
How can something be "a quintessential example" of something it isn't?

:shrug:

Oh well... back to hating on Trump.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
The post is an example of whataboutism and it is a perfect example in every pertinent respect so you see it is a quintessential example of what it is.
:focus:
chownah

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21877
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:57 am

Greetings Chownah,

Actually, no. What gets called "whataboutism" is a crude blend of, either:

- A "red herring" :redherring: (which is not good)
- Holding people accountable the same moral standards (which is good)

Mistaking what is good for bad, and bad for good, is a fault in the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

chownah
Posts: 8466
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:57 am
Greetings Chownah,

Actually, no. What gets called "whataboutism" is a crude blend of, either:

- A "red herring" :redherring: (which is not good)
- Holding people accountable the same moral standards (which is good)

Mistaking what is good for bad, and bad for good, is a fault in the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Seems like you have changed your mind and now you have answered your own question "How can something be "a quintessential example" of something it isn't?"
Is it now clear to you that in fact the post is a quintessential example of something it is?
It seems to fit within your parameters here based on your own definition of "whataboutism".
chownah
edit: Do you think that manas is in need of charity? (since you seem to want to stigmatize me as being uncharitable) I thought we had a pretty good exchange and manas's most recent post shows a heads up attitude....not like someone who needs to be given special treatment. Maybe I was wrong to treat manas like an fully formed adult human being and maybe I should take your attitude and treat manas like a weakling.
chownah

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5809
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:42 pm

Here's an interesting little snippet from that Trump-hating newspaper The Guardian:
North Korea has reopened a vital line of communication with South Korea, raising hopes of a diplomatic thaw days after Kim Jong-un said he would consider sending his country’s athletes to next month’s Winter Olympics, to be held just south of the border.

Hours after Donald Trump again baited the North Korean leader on Twitter – this time with a boast about the size and efficacy of his nuclear button – Pyongyang said it would reactivate a telephone hotline at the truce village of Panmunjom at 6.30am GMT on Wednesday.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... nnel-seoul

The Guardian makes no comment on this strange state of affairs: how a couple of days ago Trump's robust, uncompromising and very public mockery of Kim Jong-un was guaranteed to exacerbate the crisis and was evidence moreover of Trump's insanity, yet now we have the apparent opposite happening. Could things have just got a little bit safer for millions of people because someone is tough enough to take an uncompromising position?

WWOD? ("What would Obama do?")

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3430
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Mr Man » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:54 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:42 pm
The Guardian makes no comment on this strange state of affairs: how a couple of days ago Trump's robust, uncompromising and very public mockery of Kim Jong-un was guaranteed to exacerbate the crisis and was evidence moreover of Trump's insanity, yet now we have the apparent opposite happening. Could things have just got a little bit safer for millions of people because someone is tough enough to take an uncompromising position?
N. Korea had made moves towards talks with S. Korea prior to Trumps "bigger button" tweet.

As North and South Korea Begin to Talk, Trump Watches From Sidelines

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/us/p ... korea.html

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5809
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:18 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:54 pm

N. Korea had made moves towards talks with S. Korea prior to Trumps "bigger button" tweet.
They had, but not before Trump had already made some very tough noises about Kim Jong-un which had the Guardian editorial staff talking about his rashness. And one would think that if Trump's tweets were unhelpful, one about his nuclear button would have upset the whole deal.

Sometimes, resolution is what's needed in a crisis. Again, WWOD?

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by manas » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:42 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:33 am
Maybe I was wrong to treat manas like an fully formed adult human being and maybe I should take your attitude and treat manas like a weakling.
chownah
I'm getting a lot of notifications, now I see why.

I admit my aversion to Hillary had a bit to do with why I posted the original video. But so did the fact that, from the election to the present day, the mainstream media have hardly ever given Trump a chance, hardly ever. I feel it's been very one-sided, and I don't like it how, even when he does the right thing, many are so opposed no matter what, they deride it anyway. Just trying to redress what I feel is an imbalance.

Trump can be badly spoken, has been uncouth, rude on occasion, etc. But I think he pretends less than many other politicians, yes, especially he is much less fake than Hillary, who I still feel is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Let's look more at what he does, less at how he speaks. Thus far, I'm upset by his recognition of Jerusalem, as the capital of Israel, which he appears to have done, to secure the zionist / fundamentalist christian vote in America, and his weakening of environmental protection laws, for example. But regarding waging foreign wars, he hasn't come close to Obama's expansion of the so-called 'war on terror'. His haters don't seem to recognize that. Let's look at what he actually does, rather than the often 'unpresidential' nature of his speech. Obama spoke charmingly and eloquently, but some of his actions (decisions, orders) were utterly appalling, in terms of loss of life, killing of civilians, etc:
Obama embraced the US drone programme, overseeing more strikes in his first year than Bush carried out during his entire presidency. A total of 563 strikes, largely by drones, targeted Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen during Obama’s two terms, compared to 57 strikes under Bush. Between 384 and 807 civilians were killed in those countries, according to reports logged by the Bureau. https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... -than-bush
...but at least he was 'presidential' in his manner and bearing! (irony intended).
Last edited by manas on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
How often we regret having said too much, and how seldom, too little.

pulga
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by pulga » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:16 pm

On the campaign trail, President Trump famously asked African Americans: “What do you have to lose?” by voting for him. He promised his economic agenda would lead to more jobs and higher wages for everyone.
Black unemployment falls to lowest level on record

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests