Trump. And why I hate him.

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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DooDoot
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:44 pm
Then why did URSS fail ? They still maintain colonies to this day, were super proud of their embrace of technology and "building the new world". etc. The education system had an extreme focus on technology and they did their best to invent things in technical fields. But the economic system was simply too inefficient. And it doesn't take more than a pigeon brain to figure out why. The reason capitalism won was EFFICIENCY.
Maybe the primary reason is PERSONAL INCENTIVE or PROFIT MOTIVE (rather than efficiency). However, this is not related to my question, which was:
Did any great modern economic/industrial nation actually ever come into existence as a result of deregulation? :shrug:
You seem to be making a very broad generalisation about CAPITALISM rather than exploring the different types of capitalism & why some types of capitalism succeed & other types of capitalism fail (leading to the Great Depression & GFC).
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:45 pm

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:41 pm
Maybe the primary reason is personal INCENTIVE or PROFIT MOTIVE (rather than efficiency).
Incentive and profit motive are causes. Efficiency is the outcome.

You're both right, just coming at it from different angles.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:48 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:45 pm
You're both right, just coming at it from different angles.
The Buddha taught causes. For example, when Sariputta (Upatissa) met Assajji, Assajji explained his teacher teaches "that which arises from a cause, the Great Recluse declares the cause". Where as focusing on causeless effect or outcome is solipsism of a solipsist. ;)
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:45 pm
Incentive and profit motive are causes. Efficiency is the outcome.
This did not occur in the Great Depression or GFC, when the capitalists withheld their capital, causing the system to collapse. Capitalism can evolve from open competition to govt-bought-monopoly-oligarchy, which isn't always efficient. For example, I think the idea that big govt is solely related to socialism is not true. Much of big govt is related to crony-capitalism. For examples, many private capitalist interests profit greatly from wars, which are funded by the taxpayer but supplied by private companies. The US M.I.C is a capitalist rather than socialist phenomena. The funding & bribing of govt officials, is a capitalist phenomena. That Trump & Goldman Sachs control the govt for their personal benefits is a capitalist phenomena. :|
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:56 pm

Greetings DooDoot,

Yes, there are instances of what's known as "market failure".
Much of big govt is related to crony-capitalism.
Indeed.

One of the biggest challenges is 21st century Western democracy is how to remove that cronyism, when it's in the interests of individual representatives of both major parties to sustain or deepen that level of cronyism.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:03 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:56 pm
Yes, there are instances of what's known as "market failure".
Personally, I doubt is it related to "the market" but related to a lack of proper govt regulation. Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Alan Greenspan, Sandy Weill, etc, got their boy Bill Clinton to repeal the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act (which kept Main St & Wall St banking apart) in 1999 and merely 8 years later there was systemic collapse, where suddenly these once small time casino Wall St banks became "too big to fail". Looks like govt failure rather than market failure. Now there is Gary Cohn & Steven Mnuchin with Trump.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:11 pm

Greetings DooDoot,

If it was solely market based and without intervention, more US banks would have failed during the GFC. Instead, they received "bailouts". When you know bailouts are there for your protection, you can engage in riskier practices... like an acrobat with a net.

On a related note, did you know that Citibank played a major role in determining Barack Obama's cabinet? No, really...

The Most Important WikiLeaks Revelation Isn’t About Hillary Clinton

... I remember looking at the e-mail in question and could barely believe what I was seeing.

:o

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:11 pm
Instead, they received "bailouts". When you know bailouts are there for your protection, you can engage in riskier practices... like an acrobat with a net.
Yes, sounds very socialist there. Its upper-class-socialism or crony-capitalism, which is the ultimate evolution of capitalism, as Marx & Lenin suggested. In Buddhism, its all called endless 'samsara'. Good video (not that I am promoting socialism):


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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:26 pm

Greetings DooDoot,

This is why citizens must always be vigilant about depending their liberty in the face of self-serving government cronyism. This includes economic liberty, as encapsulated in the free market.

Many American patriots are aware of this, and that's why Republicans nominated an outsider to "drain the swamp in Washington DC", and it's why Trump was elected POTUS despite the full resources of that corrupt machine (both media, political, and even more amazingly, the intelligence community) being hurled at him.

This is ultimately why the establishment hate Trump... he is an existential threat to their cronyism. They never thought he would win... and now what they have done is being exposed.

It amazes me that many leftists, who claim to be about supporting the little guy in the face of "systemic oppression", turn a blind eye to where the "systemic oppression" actually resides.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:41 pm
You seem to be making a very broad generalisation about CAPITALISM rather than exploring the different types of capitalism & why some types of capitalism succeed & other types of capitalism fail (leading to the Great Depression & GFC).
There is no such thing as capitalism ever failing. Even under dictatorship like China or Russia, it still goes on the up and up. The problem is that the more corruption you have, the less efficient the system is. And remember all this money comes mainly from efficiency. This is why many predict that China will never rise too high. But at least they're better than before.

And speaking of deregulation and economic success, the most successful country out there is a very liberal one: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/sw ... ar-AAphQ0K

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 am

If you'd like to talk about cronyism, let's take a look at the new tax law.
It's typical of the super wealthy, who finance the Republican Party, that they want to get a huge tax break. That, I'd say, is the entire reason for their existence.
Trump said he would "drain the swamp"--that was just a phrase he used to manipulate stupid people into voting for him. He hasn't done anything like that.

And this new tax law will benefit him, and his children!

What a pathetic thing it is, to see people deluded by this obvious Con Man.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:31 am

Greetings Alan,

You speak of wealthy backers, but how much money was behind the Clinton campaign, in contrast to the Trump campaign?

:shrug:

It's less about Republican vs Democrats now than it is about Establishment vs Non-Establishment... or even more specifically, Patriots vs Globalists.

It could have been such a different outcome if the DNC had not sabotaged Bernie Sanders. Frankly, I think the better outcome was achieved in the end, so I thank the DNC for shooting themselves in the foot, due to their own corruption.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:41 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:44 pm
The reason capitalism won was EFFICIENCY
The reason capitalism won is that capitalism enables greed while totalitarian systems do not.
Your emphasis on efficiency is not exactly off the mark but it is not the driving force. Efficiency is not a driving force usually. Does the typical person dream of becoming more efficient?....no....does the typical person dream of becoming rich....yes. Capitalism creates and environment where greedy people are enabled to attain their dreams....that is its strength and its weakness. The strength side of this is obvious....getting alot of people excited about being efficient because it will bring them vast wealth and power is likely to produce efficiency. This is fine but unfortunatly efficiency must be measured against some outcome (is it time efficient...is it space efficient...is it energy efficient...is it efficient at creating the most widgets....is it efficient in feeding the most people.....is it efficient in giving the most people the best lifestyle....is it efficient in giving rich people even more money?). As long as there are unlimited resources (like in america up until about the first world war) the social issues are more or less muted in that people can just move on to other opportunities if they are being exploited.....if a factory is abusive you can move west and become a farmer or get another job at a better place because there is lots of growth and lots of opportunities for work. Think about the present.....there is no unclaimed farm land and no new rich ore deposits that are easily accessed and no underutilized forests to be cut.....now people can not just move on nearly so easily as the field of opportunity is not so wide open.....now the weakness of misplaced efficiency becomes obvious....yet capitalism in and of itself has no mechanism for refocusing efficiency towards benefiting humanity......this is where some social ideals (I don't want to mention "socialism" in any context if retrofuturist is in the house) can usefully come into play.....when effeciencies are attained which do in fact produce an abundance of goods so that no one needs to be lacking in the basics then in my view society should recognize this and take strong measures to refocus and redirect the arrow of efficiency.
chownah

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:22 am

Circle5 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:01 am
And remember all this money comes mainly from efficiency.
Solipsism of a solipsist :D . The cause is profit motive, greed & forced need (of working classes).
Circle5 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:01 am
And speaking of deregulation and economic success, the most successful country out there is a very liberal one: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/sw ... ar-AAphQ0K
Switzerland is not a major industrial economy but has always been a niche provider.
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:41 am
Capitalism creates and environment where greedy people are enabled to attain their dreams....that is its strength and its weakness.
Yes however it seems to do better than communism. I think the best models have been shown to be the national-socialist models of 1930s & post-WW2 Germany, which follow the Buddhist model of mutual recognition of capital & labour. Germany has obviously always been the most efficient major economy since its industrialization in the 1800s, which may possibly be connected to the German people/culture able to work more co-operatively.
alan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 am
If you'd like to talk about cronyism, let's take a look at the new tax law. It's typical of the super wealthy, who finance the Republican Party, that they want to get a huge tax break. That, I'd say, is the entire reason for their existence.
Trump said he would "drain the swamp"--that was just a phrase he used to manipulate stupid people into voting for him. He hasn't done anything like that.
He probably never will because it is a huge swamp.
alan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 am
And this new tax law will benefit him, and his children!
It will especially benefit Wall Street, who will have more cash to play with.
alan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 am
What a pathetic thing it is, to see people deluded by this obvious Con Man.
Sure. But it was Bill Clinton who started the major deregulation.
retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:31 am
It's less about Republican vs Democrats now than it is about Establishment vs Non-Establishment... or even more specifically, Patriots vs Globalists.
Trump has showed himself, so far, to not be a military Globalist. Trump stopped much of the killing & murder. Stops funding the ISIS terrorists, wonderfully sends the Saudi war mongers into turmoil & gives the pro-ISIS Zionists talk of Jerusalem as the consolation or booby prize. Whether its planned or just bumbling, it is working so far. Obviously, North Korea is just talk, to keep the war hawks like Clinton & McCain distracted. Based on military record of non-killing, Trump is 10,000% better than Obama. Nobel Peace prize? ... just more imaginary Solipsism.

:anjali:

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:22 am

Trump has showed himself, so far, to not be a military Globalist.
Is US military spending increasing under Trump? Are US millitery exports likely to increase and be made easier under Trump?
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:22 am
Trump stopped much of the killing & murder.
Have there been less drone strikes under Trump, less civilian casualties in war zones?
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:22 am
Stops funding the ISIS terrorists,
Did Trump stop US funding of ISIS (I guess first it would need to be shown that the US was funding ISIS and trump stioped it)?

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by pulga » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:05 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:38 am

Have there been less drone strikes under Trump, less civilian casualties in war zones?
While it is true that civilian casualties did dramatically increase once President Trump gave the U.S. military free reign to snuff out ISIS in Syria and Iraq, in the long run it probably saved lives and reduced the suffering in the region. President Obama let the crisis fester for almost his entire tenure in office, and look at what resulted from his soft-handed approach in dealing with the terrorists.

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