Trump. And why I hate him.

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
alan
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:34 am

Not a big fan of him. Make another choice.
It's easy to get to that channel--MSNBC.com. They have several good hosts. Rachel is my fav. She grew up in my area. If you want to hear what I sound like, listen to her.
Get real news here: http://www.msnbc.com

alan
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:01 am

Hoelzle/Obama? I'd be happy to have Michelle on the ticket. She's smarter than me, and more organized.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:06 am

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:01 am
Hoelzle/Obama? I'd be happy to have Michelle on the ticket. She's smarter than me, and more organized.
Well, ultimately you get to choose your "running mate"!

I'll still buy the hat, regardless.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:58 am

They say 'running mate" when you pick a VP. I know, seems silly. As for the hat, would you like all blue, or prefer a green/yellow combination?
Trump's hats are all one color. I think Liberals should get multi-colored hats.

Circle5
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:59 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:42 am
...Since socialism and communism predictably turn countries into authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes,
Metta,
Paul. :)
:jawdrop:
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ration.png

:juggling:

Kim
Can you point a single one on that map that isn't a hell hole ? :anjali:

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:59 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:42 am
...Since socialism and communism predictably turn countries into authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes,
Metta,
Paul. :)
:jawdrop:
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ration.png

:juggling:

Kim
Can you point a single one on that map that isn't a hell hole ? :anjali:
Well I could, but that would be unfair to the others that aren't hell-holes.
I haven't been to Cuba, but a good friend of mine was there recently and said, yes, they are poor but it's a really nice place. I have been to Laos myself and loved it - people all seem happier than most people in Oz, who (in turn) seem to be happier than most people in the US. Ditto Vietnam - maybe a little better off than Laos but not quite so happy.
And then there's Europe - Portugal is fine, according to my son, and I have similar good reports from the western half of the old Eastern Europe bloc - Czech Republic, Slovenia, most of the former Yugoslavia.
How many of these countries have you visited?

:coffee:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:40 am

Greetings,

Laos really has no business being on that map...

Economy of Laos
The economy of the Lao People's Democratic Republic is rapidly growing, as a result of decentralized government control and encouragement of private enterprise in 1986. Currently, Laos ranks amongst the fastest growing economies in the world, averaging 8% a year in GDP growth. It is also forecasted that Laos will sustain at least 7% growth through 2019 as well.
Another win for market capitalism and deregulation. :thumbsup:

That map is looking more and more like commie propaganda. Sad!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:40 am
Greetings,

Laos really has no business being on that map...

Economy of Laos
The economy of the Lao People's Democratic Republic is rapidly growing, as a result of decentralized government control and encouragement of private enterprise in 1986. Currently, Laos ranks amongst the fastest growing economies in the world, averaging 8% a year in GDP growth. It is also forecasted that Laos will sustain at least 7% growth through 2019 as well.
Another win for market capitalism and deregulation. :thumbsup:

That map is looking more and more like commie propaganda. Sad!

Metta,
Paul. :)
From your link:
In FY 1999, foreign grants and loans accounted for more than 20% of GDP and more than 75% of public investment.
I have not verified this but I think you will find that the way vast majority of the foreign grants and loans came from China and possibly from Vietnam......maybe china and vietnam shouldn't be on that map either.
chownah

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:40 am
Greetings,

Laos really has no business being on that map...

Economy of Laos
The economy of the Lao People's Democratic Republic is rapidly growing, as a result of decentralized government control and encouragement of private enterprise in 1986. Currently, Laos ranks amongst the fastest growing economies in the world, averaging 8% a year in GDP growth. It is also forecasted that Laos will sustain at least 7% growth through 2019 as well.
Another win for market capitalism and deregulation. :thumbsup:

That map is looking more and more like commie propaganda. Sad!

Metta,
Paul. :)
:rolleye:
Careful, Paul! You're sounding more and more like Trump.

:toilet:
Kim

Circle5
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:32 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:59 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am

:jawdrop:
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ration.png

:juggling:

Kim
Can you point a single one on that map that isn't a hell hole ? :anjali:
Well I could, but that would be unfair to the others that aren't hell-holes.
I haven't been to Cuba, but a good friend of mine was there recently and said, yes, they are poor but it's a really nice place. I have been to Laos myself and loved it - people all seem happier than most people in Oz, who (in turn) seem to be happier than most people in the US. Ditto Vietnam - maybe a little better off than Laos but not quite so happy.
And then there's Europe - Portugal is fine, according to my son, and I have similar good reports from the western half of the old Eastern Europe bloc - Czech Republic, Slovenia, most of the former Yugoslavia.
How many of these countries have you visited?

:coffee:
Kim
And did at least a single one of these countries that you listed had over 2000$ GDP per capita while under communism ? :anjali:

Let's put them all on the map and see where they stand compared to USA: (notice how low they were in 1992, all of them under the 2000 mark that socialist never manage to pass)

Also notice where Portugal was standing in 1985

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false


Now let's put the same grapth with USA included :anjali:

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false

Please notice how in 1990 - all of them were under the impenetrable wall of 2000$. Laos and Vietnam still are at that embarasing level due to continue with socialist policies long after eastern europe dropped it.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 am

Greetings,
Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:28 am
Careful, Paul! You're sounding more and more like Trump.
Flattery will get you nowhere, Kim.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

DooDoot
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:22 am

I think 'capitalist' economic growth in modern history has probably occurred due to various causes, such as:

1. Colonial exploitation in respect to both raw materials & export markets

2. Technological innovation

3. Protectionism

4. Consumerism (based on spendworthy wages).

But with deregulation resulting in capital flows towards cheap-unspendworthy-wage juristictions, is current 'deregulated' economic activity due to debt growth in Western nations? Did any great modern economic/industrial nation actually ever come into existence as a result of deregulation? :shrug:

Image

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:05 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:32 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:59 am

Can you point a single one on that map that isn't a hell hole ? :anjali:
How many of these countries have you visited?

:coffee:
Kim

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:22 am
I think 'capitalist' economic growth in modern history has probably occurred due to various causes, such as:

1. Colonial exploitation in respect to both raw materials & export markets

2. Technological innovation

3. Protectionism

4. Consumerism (based on spendworthy wages).
Yes, and I've seen analyses which suggest that economic growth in the last 150 years is due almost entirely to technological change and particularly the "energy subsidy" of fossil fuels, and is basically independent of forms of government. I can't remember where, though - sorry.

:namaste:
Kim

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:12 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:32 am
And did at least a single one of these countries that you listed had over 2000$ GDP per capita while under communism ? :anjali:

Let's put them all on the map and see where they stand compared to USA: (notice how low they were in 1992, all of them under the 2000 mark that socialist never manage to pass)

Also notice where Portugal was standing in 1985

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false


Now let's put the same grapth with USA included :anjali:

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false

Please notice how in 1990 - all of them were under the impenetrable wall of 2000$. Laos and Vietnam still are at that embarasing level due to continue with socialist policies long after eastern europe dropped it.
So the US was richer in the beginning and still richer at the end. Wow! :rolleye:
How about looking at growth in GDP to eliminate that effect?
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false
Makes the US look pretty ordinary, doesn't it?

:coffee:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:20 am

Greetings Kim,
Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:05 am
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:32 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am

How many of these countries have you visited?

:coffee:
Kim
Maybe the member actually lives in one of these poverty-stricken countries, and therefore doesn't have the kind of disposable income that someone from a wealthy capitalist country like yours might have, which might otherwise enable them to similarly go off jet-setting to far flung and exotic locations?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:20 am
Greetings Kim,
Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:05 am
Circle5 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:32 am

Maybe the member actually lives in one of these poverty-stricken countries, and therefore doesn't have the kind of disposable income that someone from a wealthy capitalist country like yours might have, which might otherwise enable them to similarly go off jet-setting to far flung and exotic locations?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
1. You mean "someone from a wealthy capitalist country like ours," of course.
2. Maybe they do live "in one of these poverty-stricken countries," in which case I will have a little more respect for their opinion - when and if they answer the question. There's no shame in living in Luang Prabang or Lima or Langwarrin but failing to answer a direct question shows a lack of courtesy, wherever they live.

:namaste:
Kim

Circle5
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:22 am
I think 'capitalist' economic growth in modern history has probably occurred due to various causes, such as:

1. Colonial exploitation in respect to both raw materials & export markets

2. Technological innovation

3. Protectionism

4. Consumerism (based on spendworthy wages).

But with deregulation resulting in capital flows towards cheap-unspendworthy-wage juristictions, is current 'deregulated' economic activity due to debt growth in Western nations? Did any great modern economic/industrial nation actually ever come into existence as a result of deregulation? :shrug:

Image
Then why did URSS fail ? They still maintain colonies to this day, were super proud of their embrace of technology and "building the new world". etc. The education system had an extreme focus on technology and they did their best to invent things in technical fields. But the economic system was simply too inefficient. And it doesn't take more than a pigeon brain to figure out why.

The reason capitalism won was EFFICIENCY

Circle5
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:10 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:09 am
Yes, and I've seen analyses which suggest that economic growth in the last 150 years is due almost entirely to technological change and particularly the "energy subsidy" of fossil fuels, and is basically independent of forms of government. I can't remember where, though - sorry.

:namaste:
Kim
That's one of the stupidest things economics-wise I've ever heard. Where in the world do they write such things ? On teenager communist websites ?

All analysis show that efficiency is the thing that makes a difference. Even investment has almost zero difference in terms of productivity. For example if you invest 1 million into USA and 1 million into Zimbabe, it will have almost identical productivity, something like 1 vs 1.1. Education and other things also have an extremelly small effect. The thing that makes the radical difference is EFFICIENCY.

Communism was a system designed to be as inefficient as possible. As I said, even a pigeon could figure out it would fail. Even if one would want to create the most inefficient system on purpose, they could never surpass the communist. To this day, no other economic system as inefficient as communism has ever been created.
So the US was richer in the beginning and still richer at the end. Wow! :rolleye:
How about looking at growth in GDP to eliminate that effect?
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... &ind=false
Makes the US look pretty ordinary, doesn't it?
How about West Germany vs East Germany :juggling:
How about North Korea vs South Korea :juggling:
How about Romania vs Rep Moldoa :juggling: (for a more recent example)

Same people, same culture, same starting point, same everything - results totally, totally different. Even today there is a tax in Germany that is collected so that it can be invested in East Germany that hasn't caught up to this day.
Maybe the member actually lives in one of these poverty-stricken countries, and therefore doesn't have the kind of disposable income that someone from a wealthy capitalist country like yours might have, which might otherwise enable them to similarly go off jet-setting to far flung and exotic locations?
I never complain too much about living in a poor country, despite 99% of Romanians doing that all the time. Reality is, it's not poor anymore and I was too little before 2002 when it actually was super super poor (2000 vs 10.500 GDP per capita). So I did not suffer too much cause when you are little it doesn't really affect you, you don't even know your country is poor.

But there were things like this happening when I was little:

- We didn't have public lighting except for main boulevards. That's why all people who visited the west for the first time after the fall of communism always say the thing that impressed them most was how many lights there were, how much electricity.

- There were big problems with heating. Heat was centralized and they gave us very little. They always started delivering it like 1 month after winter came and it would constantly break down. I lived in a good neighbourghood and it rarely broke down but there was still the problem of freezing at school cause all schools were refrigerators. We had wooden windows made in the 70s that let all little heat we had go out. One of the first problems that were fixed after Ro developed a little was changing school windows with PVCs.

- Hotels were terrible. The communist built only 2 start hotels and bragged about that. These hotels were never renovated, many even today are the same as they were when they were built in the 70s. It was incredible how ugly hotels were.

- Lack of toys. Toys were a joke compared to the toys we saw in cartoon network commercials.

- All cars being the trashy Dacia 1310 or other trashy things like Oltcit, Wartburg, Trabant, etc.

- etc. etc. etc.

There are a million things that are a problem when you are living in a super poor country. And this life from the 90s, although standing at the same GDP, was considered great cause there was freedom of expression and the problems with lack of food weren't as big as before. People never appreciate how great freedom of expression is if they never lived without it.

It is also worth noting that Romania was a modern and developed country in the interbellic period before communism was enforced on us by a colonial power. It's also worth noting that colonial is the only european power that still hasn't renounced their colonies, one of their colonies being a part of Romania taken by force during WW2 (Rep. Moldova). Imagine how people would react if USA would be still hanging onto it's colonies in the way Russia does.

Circle5
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Circle5 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:16 pm

Speaking of the Dacia 1310 model being produced until infinity...
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