Trump. And why I hate him.

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:42 am
...Since socialism and communism predictably turn countries into authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes,
Metta,
Paul. :)
:jawdrop:
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ration.png

:juggling:

Kim

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retrofuturist
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:00 am

Greetings,
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...
... authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes... plus some decent countries with incredibly spurious grounds for being regarded as a socialist.

India?... They haven't actually been socialist since 1991... and see what happened once they liberalised their economy, and opted instead for capitalism...

Image

Maybe ask Indians if they want to go back to how things were before they were economically liberated.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by alan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:10 am

Sounds like parts of America. That is why we may need Schiff/Hoelzle 2020.
Last edited by alan on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:00 am
Greetings,
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...
... authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes... plus some decent countries with incredibly spurious grounds for being regarded as a socialist.

India?...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well, if you're willing to reconsider your sweeping generalisation ... :smile:
Any country to the left of one's own preferred form of government can be disparagingly labelled "socialist", and any country to the right disparaged as "capitalist" which is why (e.g.) the Scandinavian countries are "socialist" to US republicans and "capitalist" to the Russians.
It's not a binary choice, but a spectrum. India is somewhere on it, not too far from the middle, although just where you put it depends on how you choose to define your terms.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 am

Greetings,

The actual delineation isn't based on feelings, identity, labels or accusations, but rather whether the percentage of GDP generated by state & collectivist industries exceeds that generated by private individuals and private corporations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 am
Greetings,

The actual delineation isn't based on feelings, identity, labels or accusations, but rather whether the percentage of GDP generated by state & collectivist industries exceeds that generated by private individuals and private corporations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
That's one definition. Yours, and yours alone, unless you can give it more weight by citing reputable sources.

:coffee:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:58 am

Greetings Kim,

It's Economics 101... See for example https://www.thebalance.com/the-characte ... ism-393509

That said... nowhere in the world are the means of production 100% private or 100% public, so economies are defined by their relativities between the two, on a scale. You may wish to allow a middle range for "mixed economy" if you like, and that's a bit fluffier in terms of the range where it might apply.

So that's one standard axis used to designate economies. The other axis signifies "command" (as in "centrally planned") and "market". Thus, one axis covers the means of production (social or private capital) and the other the mechanism for distribution.

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:58 am
Greetings Kim,

It's Economics 101... See for example https://www.thebalance.com/the-characte ... ism-393509
That doesn't actually support your definition ... and I don't think I would call it reputable or authoritative, either. :thinking:
That said... nowhere in the world are the means of production 100% private or 100% public, so economies are defined by their relativities between the two, on a scale. You may wish to allow a middle range for "mixed economy" if you like, and that's a bit fluffier in terms of the range where it might apply.

So that's one standard axis used to designate economies. The other axis signifies "command" (as in "centrally planned") and "market". Thus, one axis covers the means of production (social or private capital) and the other the mechanism for distribution.

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
Agreed. But that doesn't actually support your definition either. :thinking:

Now ... would you care to rephrase your sweeping generalisation, or would you prefer to get back to the topic?

:coffee:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:44 am

Greetings Kim,

Sorry, no offense, but it's true.... if you want to see other sources, check out the same thing represented over and over and over here...

So what are you going to do... badger me until I praise an authoritarian economic system, where the means of production are controlled by government?

How "tolerant".

Sure, get back to hate, if that's your preference.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:53 am

Greetings alan,
alan wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:10 am
Sounds like parts of America. That is why we may need Schiff/Hoelzle 2020.
Sorry mate, it's the Schiff part that kills it for me.

That aside, flip the ticket and I'll support your campaign by buying a hat.

:sage:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 am
Greetings,

The actual delineation isn't based on feelings, identity, labels or accusations, but rather whether the percentage of GDP generated by state & collectivist industries exceeds that generated by private individuals and private corporations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Can you bring a reference which talks about percentages of GDP etc.? This is what you call the "actual delineation".....and kim ohara has challenged it....and you have not brought a reference...which should not be difficult if it actually is "the actual delineation.

Or perhaps you did bring it and I missed it.....in which case I apologise for wasting space.
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:10 am

Greetings Chownah,
Nove, Alec. 'Socialism'. New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008). wrote:A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Kim OHara
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:10 am
Greetings Chownah,
Nove, Alec. 'Socialism'. New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008). wrote:A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how.
Metta,
Paul. :)
:thanks:
...but I'm sorry (and a bit annoyed) that you only provided this after several requests, preferring to suggest that anyone wanting something beyond your own assertion was ignorant, ill-intentioned, or both.
And it still doesn't support your sweeping generalisation, given that you yourself have said -
... nowhere in the world are the means of production 100% private or 100% public, so economies are defined by their relativities between the two, on a scale. You may wish to allow a middle range for "mixed economy" if you like, and that's a bit fluffier in terms of the range where it might apply.
Never mind.
:focus:
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-christm ... ecd7cdba0/
Trump said he was ‘back to work.’ Then he live-tweeted Fox News and went golfing 2 straight days.
The president says he's working hard, but the evidence indicates he's hardly working.
The good news here is that he's not actually doing as much harm by playing golf as by playing politics.

:rolleye:
Kim

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:02 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:00 am
Greetings,
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:52 am
In response to your sweeping generalisation ...
... authoritarian, undemocratic, poverty stricken hell holes... plus some decent countries with incredibly spurious grounds for being regarded as a socialist.

India?... They haven't actually been socialist since 1991... and see what happened once they liberalised their economy, and opted instead for capitalism...

Image

Maybe ask Indians if they want to go back to how things were before they were economically liberated.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thats just a wonky dishonest graph, if you look closely the percent increase in GDP is roughly the same from 1970-1990 as it is for 1990-2010
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

chownah
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:52 pm

Is the graph inflation adjusted?
chownah

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