Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:51 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 am
So now the problem includes Europeans from Albania and Kosovo immigrating to Europe??
No, the problem is Europeans from Albania and Kosovo migrating within Europe.
What, pray tell, is wrong with people from Albania and Kosovo, are they inferior to people form Romania or Poland, and less deserving of free travel within Europe, as the EU rules allow?????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:52 pm

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 pm
What is "fire up" hungary poland. Sorry, I really don't understand.
Fire up



Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:19 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:52 pm
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 pm
What is "fire up" hungary poland. Sorry, I really don't understand.
Fire up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsnYrH3BUP8

Metta,
Paul. :)
I still have no idea what your post meant.
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:51 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 am
So now the problem includes Europeans from Albania and Kosovo immigrating to Europe??
No, the problem is Europeans from Albania and Kosovo migrating within Europe.
What, pray tell, is wrong with people from Albania and Kosovo, are they inferior to people form Romania or Poland, and less deserving of free travel within Europe, as the EU rules allow?????
The problem is not that they are in breach of EU rules; the problem is the rules themselves. A bit like why the majority of people in the USA would probably be against a set of imposed rules which allowed anyone from North or South America to settle permanently in the USA. Or why I'm against any rules that allow non-family members to live in my house.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:19 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:52 pm
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 pm
What is "fire up" hungary poland. Sorry, I really don't understand.
Fire up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsnYrH3BUP8

Metta,
Paul. :)
I still have no idea what your post meant.
chownah
I won't presume to speak for Retro, but my understanding of what he meant was this. Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.

(Apologies to Retro if I got this wrong!)

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:34 pm

i'm sorry, but this just sounds like thinly veiled racism.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

pulga
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by pulga » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 pm

The problem is not that they are in breach of EU rules; the problem is the rules themselves. A bit like why the majority of people in the USA would probably be against a set of imposed rules which allowed anyone from North or South America to settle permanently in the USA.
We do of course allow people to move from one state to another to reside. What I find unacceptable in the E.U. is that its way of selecting its leadership is too divorce from the will of the people. In the U.S. each individual is allowed to vote in federal elections, whereas in the E.U. -- if I'm not mistaken -- the leadership is chosen by national governments.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:55 pm

pulga wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:41 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 pm

The problem is not that they are in breach of EU rules; the problem is the rules themselves. A bit like why the majority of people in the USA would probably be against a set of imposed rules which allowed anyone from North or South America to settle permanently in the USA.
We do of course allow people to move from one state to another to reside. What I find unacceptable in the E.U. is that its way of selecting its leadership is too divorce from the will of the people. In the U.S. each individual is allowed to vote in federal elections, whereas in the E.U. -- if I'm not mistaken -- the leadership is chosen by national governments.
Yes, understood. But if you are talking about movement within the USA, that's very different, and more akin to movement between Länder in Germany or Départements in France. Presumably, many citizens of the USA would be against (say) all Colombians and Venezuelans having the right to move to and settle permanently in the USA., which is the equivalent of allowing Romanians or Poles (nice though they are!) to live in the UK. You are quite right about the unelected nature of many EU politicians. We have a say in voting for the European Parliament, but none in the Commission, Council, or Council of Ministers.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.
Okay so how does one become an EU citizen?

Germany for example
A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union. Becoming a German citizen means a person has to give up their citizenship of another country, unless they have special permission to keep it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36169684

Also I thought we were talking about Muslim migration/population growth rather than EU free movement in general.

And is the UK "regaining it's sovereignty" going to have any effect on the number of Muslims living in the UK? Not much I would imagine. I wonder how many of the UK's Muslim population came as EU citizens taking advantage of free movement?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.
Okay so how does one become an EU citizen?

Germany for example
A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union. Becoming a German citizen means a person has to give up their citizenship of another country, unless they have special permission to keep it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36169684

Also I thought we were talking about Muslim migration rather than EU free movement in general.

And is the UK "regaining it's sovereignty" going to have any effect on the number of Muslims living in the UK? Not much I would imagine. I wonder how many of the UK's Muslim population came as EU citizens taking advantage of free movement?
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

The UK regaining its sovereignty means that it will be able to impose whatever laws it likes regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship. The fact that there are other factors independent of EU membership (differential birth rates, excessively lax policies on migration and asylum, underfunded border controls, relatively generous welfare support, and lack of identity cards) does mean that withdrawal from the EU will have a limited effect. But it also means that if the UK were to decide to take more effective measures under a better administration then there would be nothing to stop it from doing so.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:42 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.
Yes, that German citizen would be able to move anywhere within the EU if they so wished. Isn't that cool.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
The UK regaining its sovereignty means that it will be able to impose whatever laws it likes regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship. The fact that there are other factors independent of EU membership (differential birth rates, excessively lax policies on migration and asylum, underfunded border controls, relatively generous welfare support, and lack of identity cards) does mean that withdrawal from the EU will have a limited effect. But it also means that if the UK were to decide to take more effective measures under a better administration then there would be nothing to stop it from doing so.
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).

Being a member of the EU or not has very little relevance to the growing Muslim population in the UK

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.
Yes, that German citizen would be able to move anywhere within the EU if they so wished. Isn't that cool.
I don't think it is cool. It's already a pity that Germany has allowed a huge influx of foreign workers, and I think it would be compounding the error if they were allowed access to the UK.
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).
I think rights of entry and domicile are one of the so-called "four freedoms" of the EU. I don't know of any opt-out from that, but if one was technically available then it has not been exercised. The relevant legislation is the 2006 EEA Regulations, subject to subsequent Statutory Instruments. This was I believe the UK's response to the famous "Citizens' Rights Directive" of a couple of years earlier. Of course, we never had to sign up, but we did.
Being a member of the EU or not has very little relevance to the growing Muslim population in the UK
As I said above, it has until now had less impact than other factors, most of which are thankfully within our control, and my hope is that we will exercise that control. Being subject to the policies of a supra-national organisation lessen that control.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:51 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:34 pm
i'm sorry, but this just sounds like thinly veiled racism.
What does? (If you supplied quotes, I would be able to respond to specific points, and even be more certain that you were addressing me rather than another contributor.)

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm

Seems to me if the Buddha where alive today, he is one of the people you would want to keep out of the UK!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).
I think rights of entry and domicile are one of the so-called "four freedoms" of the EU. I don't know of any opt-out from that, but if one was technically available then it has not been exercised. The relevant legislation is the 2006 EEA Regulations, subject to subsequent Statutory Instruments. This was I believe the UK's response to the famous "Citizens' Rights Directive" of a couple of years earlier. Of course, we never had to sign up, but we did.
How is what you have written above relevant to what I had written? Seems like you just keep blowing smoke.

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