Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 am

So now the problem includes Europeans from Albania and Kosovo immigrating to Europe??
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by L.N. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:07 pm
It has been correctly identified above that the "upheaval in Syria and surrounding area" is a cause for the massive influx of Muslims into Europe... but that wouldn't have anything to do with external influences, would it? Someone wouldn't dare try to influence and engineer both the supply and demand of Muslim immigrants to further their own agenda, would they? No, surely not?...

How George Soros Is Playing Both Ends Of The Syrian Refugee Chaos

George Soros, the hedge fund speculator turned self-proclaimed philanthropist, and his tax-exempt foundations, are an integral part of that pre-emptive war machine.
This George Soros stuff is fringe alt-right conspiracy theory nonsense.

George Soros the real Dr. Evil?

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Kusala
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Kusala » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:10 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:54 am
Muslim population to grow in Europe, as cultivated by European governments (who should bear any warranted blame rather than Muslims).
Not just European governments, but idealistic, welcome-all, politically correct European people, and lukewarm European people who don't stand for anything.

Even a popular Catholic blogger here laments that it's very likely that Islam will soon take over Europe, and that a crucial factor for this is that European Christians (Catholics and others alike) are lukewarm in their religion, complacent, which makes them easy to be displaced by others who have stronger stances and practices.
I'm an optimist. Europe and the rest of the world will eventually overcome the "New Dark Age", "Degenerate Age", "Kali Yuga", whatever you want to call it.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:46 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:59 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:07 pm
It has been correctly identified above that the "upheaval in Syria and surrounding area" is a cause for the massive influx of Muslims into Europe...
Let's not forget the many other countries and regions which contribute to European immigration. Much of Iraq was unaffected by recent events in Syria. Afghanistan continues to be a huge contributor. So do Albania, Kosovo, and Pakistan. Many of these people might have been using chaos at borders to pass themselves off as Syrian refugees. In addition, British governmental lunacy in removing Gadafi in hopes of a "Pan Arab Spring" has opened up a route for Nigerian, Somali, and Eritrean migrants to cross the Mediterranean. A lot of this is economic migration, nothing to do with war.
Almost twice as many immigrants to europe from mid 2010 to mid 2016 were legal permitted immigrants who immigrated for employment or education compared to refugees.....and the birth of muslims of parents already in europe was more than twice the refugee immigration.

If europe stopped employment and education immigration they would greatly reduce the threat to their culture....but then who would do the work? Also, if they stopped these visas it would reduce the "brain drain" which occurs when europe lures the brightest and best to europe diminishing the human resources in the country of origin.

Promoting birth control more rigorously would help with the cultural dilution problem too. Treating people as equals and bringing them into society without prejudice would also help.
chownah
Yes, I agree with most of what you say here, Chownah. My main concern with migration and the growth of new cultures among the indigenous populations is with pressure on resources and quality of life through sheer volume of numbers, so all population growth - legal immigration, illiegal immigration, and high birth rates - is a problem. The issue of who would do the work is interesting. I would hope that indigenous people in every country would be able to do the work required in that country; the alternative would be a form of ponzi scheme where economies need to grow by importing new labour as successive waves of immigrants grow too comfortable to do menial tasks for a living. Many of the jobs done by migrants in Europe are "non-jobs" which we could do without if people were more energetic and enterprising: serving coffee, cleaning cars, etc. And there is another dimension to the issue of human resources in countries of origin. It is the moral dimension: if we ought to take economic migrants and political refugees for humanitarian reasons, then why do those who are active and able to travel deserve our humanitarianism more than those who are left behind? The problems in poorer and less stable countries are best solved by treating those problems in those countries, rather than exporting the inhabitants to where things seem better.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:07 pm
It has been correctly identified above that the "upheaval in Syria and surrounding area" is a cause for the massive influx of Muslims into Europe
Here are some numbers

Refugees of the Syrian Civil War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_ ... _Civil_War

I guess in relation to the number of settled Muslims in most European countries, the numbers are fairly small.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:04 pm

Greetings Mr. Man,

Indeed. It is certainly only "a" reason, not "the" reason.

That said, it's certainly a multi-factorial situation with (to borrow some language from the commentaries) "proximate causes" and all sorts of other machinations going on behind and beyond what is immediately apparent.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 pm

Europeans want to import workers and bright students....2.5 muslims gained legal entry to europe from mid 2010 to mid 2016 according to pew research and in the same period there were 1.3 million refugees admitted to europe.

If europeans are really worried about the influx of muslims they should stop all work and education visas.....but they don't it seems. So it seems that just like many countries don't want americans but they accept them because they want american money, europe doesn't want muslims but they are lazy and they want the work done which muslims are willing to do and they want to import the brightest and best of muslim human resource.

Americans should understand this very well in that it is very similar to mexican immigration to the usa......they want the work done but they don't want the workers.
Seems like politicos don't understand this and only want to focus on the partisan aspects of refugees.
chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:32 pm

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 pm
Europe doesn't want muslims but they are lazy and they want the work done which muslims are willing to do and they want to import the brightest and best of muslim human resource.
Moreover, that's what the EU tells its member states that they're getting... unless they fire up (e.g. Hungary, Poland) or reclaim their national sovereignty (e.g. Britain).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:34 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:46 am
I would hope that indigenous people in every country would be able to do the work required in that country;
It seems that you are not knowledgeable about immigrant labor.....it happens all over the world. Example: here in thailand, someone who lives in my village hires four or five or six legal immigrant workers from myanmar to do the work at his concrete products factory....construction blocks, culverts, pre-cast columns, etc. He hires them because thais won't do the same work as cheaply. The interesting part to me is that the way he got enough money to start his business was by doing legal immigrant labor in taiwan where he did jobs for alot more money than he would have made in thailand but at a rate much cheaper than the taiwanese would work for.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:32 pm
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 pm
Europe doesn't want muslims but they are lazy and they want the work done which muslims are willing to do and they want to import the brightest and best of muslim human resource.
Moreover, that's what the EU tells its member states that they're getting... unless they fire up (e.g. Hungary, Poland) or reclaim their national sovereignty (e.g. Britain).

Metta,
Paul. :)
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. What does the eu tell its memeber states? What is "fire up" hungary poland. Sorry, I really don't understand.
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:55 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 pm
Europeans want to import workers and bright students....2.5 muslims gained legal entry to europe from mid 2010 to mid 2016 according to pew research and in the same period there were 1.3 million refugees admitted to europe.

If europeans are really worried about the influx of muslims they should stop all work and education visas.....but they don't it seems.
This would, I think, be a grave mistake, even for those who wish to have more stringent and effective controls over migration. Work and education visas should continue to be issued in areas where skills shortages are apparent, or where there is a national interest in so doing. It doesn't really matter about the religion of those so admitted; if they have desirable skills or characteristics, they are likely to want to assimilate or practice their religion in private. We do of course need to ensure that the education visa system is not abused by bogus students who disappear shortly after signing up for their college course, or who outstay the period covered by the educational visa.

What is absolutely undesirable is having immigration policy defined and implemented by supra-national agencies such as the EU. Given that all but the "no borders" advocates would say that there should be some limit to the numbers of immigrants, every unskilled unproductive person who arrives looking for menial work thereby deprives another skilled potential immigrant of a place in the destination country. I know of several very poignant examples of this. In particular, I am good friends with a Sri Lankan Buddhist couple who are based in Cambridge, and who are doing post-doctoral work (in Physics and Engineering) at the University and for UK companies. Their work (as far as I can understand it!) seems to be extremely useful, for humanity and for the planet and for enterprising companies. But (like most post-doc scientists starting their careers) their work is short-term contractual, and they are faced with the constant fear of deportation unless they have the next gig lined up. Meanwhile, zero-skilled migrants have a legal right to remain...

I don't know about Europe in general, but few British people seem to care about the religion of immigrants, provided that it does not coexist with attitudes and practices that are repugnant or destructive. Yes to small numbers of migrants who work hard, fit in, and have the qualities we value. No to huge numbers, female genital mutilation, organised rape gangs, jihadists, low-skilled chancers, and the distortions to our laws and culture that attempts to accommodate these have hitherto incurred.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:32 pm

or reclaim their national sovereignty (e.g. Britain).

This is from pre-referendum days

The UK can't be forced to accept more refugees
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-cant-be- ... -refugees/

UK to accept 20,000 refugees from Syria by 2020
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34171148

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:16 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:46 am
I would hope that indigenous people in every country would be able to do the work required in that country;
It seems that you are not knowledgeable about immigrant labor.....it happens all over the world. Example: here in thailand, someone who lives in my village hires four or five or six legal immigrant workers from myanmar to do the work at his concrete products factory....construction blocks, culverts, pre-cast columns, etc. He hires them because thais won't do the same work as cheaply. The interesting part to me is that the way he got enough money to start his business was by doing legal immigrant labor in taiwan where he did jobs for alot more money than he would have made in thailand but at a rate much cheaper than the taiwanese would work for.
chownah
I know that it happens that way. My point is that as an economic model, it is neither ineradicable nor particularly desirable.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:22 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:06 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:32 pm

or reclaim their national sovereignty (e.g. Britain).

This is from pre-referendum days

The UK can't be forced to accept more refugees
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-cant-be- ... -refugees/

UK to accept 20,000 refugees from Syria by 2020
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34171148
The EU has no power to compel member states to accept refugees (it has influence, certainly); but full membership of the EU means that the UK has no legal power to restrict EU nationals from entering, regardless of whether they are indigenous Europeans or whether they have acquired citizenship upon migrating from outside Europe. That's the "free movement of peoples" issue.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 am
So now the problem includes Europeans from Albania and Kosovo immigrating to Europe??
No, the problem is Europeans from Albania and Kosovo migrating within Europe.

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