Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Greetings Paul,
paul wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 pm
These alarmist posts display a reactive response fixed on a view from the past “sensing no change in the changing” (AN 4:49) , and indicate a general inability to detect impermanence. This is one of the perversions (vipallasa). “ The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention, it is concealed by continuity,” (Vism. XXI, 3). The remedy for this is the contemplation of the cycle of impermanence in materiality, particularly in nature and in the human body (both internally and externally), bearing in mind that the primal tendency is towards the ‘ripe’ section of the cycle, so this must be countered by intentionally focusing on the dissolution phase, i.e. ageing, sickness and death.
Just curious... would you apply the same kind of dismissive logic to climate change, mass poverty, mass starvation, world wars etc.?

I would suggest that not conflating the two lokas (i.e. loka of the six sense spheres, and the loka which signifies the world in general) might lead to more consistency in these matters.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:47 pm

paul wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 pm
These alarmist posts display a reactive response fixed on a view from the past “sensing no change in the changing” (AN 4:49) , and indicate a general inability to detect impermanence. This is one of the perversions (vipallasa). “ The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention, it is concealed by continuity,” (Vism. XXI, 3). The remedy for this is the contemplation of the cycle of impermanence in materiality, particularly in nature and in the human body (both internally and externally), bearing in mind that the primal tendency is towards the ‘ripe’ section of the cycle, so this must be countered by intentionally focusing on the dissolution phase, i.e. ageing, sickness and death.
Could you please say a bit more on how these thoughts on impermanence relate to the issue of Muslim immigration in Europe? What is it that is changing, but is thought by some to be not changing?

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Garrib » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:59 am

Just watched the video and I stand by my initial intuitive response to the still. Childishly simplistic with racist undertones, no in depth analysis, no real statistics, fear mongering and emotional appeals to nationalism...

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by pilgrim » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am

The conversation here is probably similar to the conversations in the courtyards around Borobudur in Indonesia 700 years ago when the local Hindus and Buddhists noticed the large numbers of Arab traders in their midst. The nature of Islam is that it restricts conversion to other religions and cultures. It never assimilates, it simply overwhelms. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Garrib » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am
The conversation here is probably similar to the conversations in the courtyards around Borobudur in Indonesia 700 years ago when the local Hindus and Buddhists noticed the large numbers of Arab traders in their midst. The nature of Islam is that it restricts conversion to other religions and cultures. It never assimilates, it simply overwhelms. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.
So the Muslims who have been living and practicing their religion peacefully for decades in my hometown (Greater Seattle area) must be mythical creatures?

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:08 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am
The conversation here is probably similar to the conversations in the courtyards around Borobudur in Indonesia 700 years ago when the local Hindus and Buddhists noticed the large numbers of Arab traders in their midst. The nature of Islam is that it restricts conversion to other religions and cultures. It never assimilates, it simply overwhelms. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.
But the muslims did assimilate to a degree. They assimilated to the degree that a large percent of muslims whose culture originated in the middle east do not think of those indonesia muslims as even being proper muslims.

Also, the culture of indonesia was "assimilated" to a degree in that it did not remain the same and is clearly not the same as it was but the present day indonesian culture is distinctly indonesian.....and mostly no one is complaining.

chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by pilgrim » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am
pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am
The conversation here is probably similar to the conversations in the courtyards around Borobudur in Indonesia 700 years ago when the local Hindus and Buddhists noticed the large numbers of Arab traders in their midst. The nature of Islam is that it restricts conversion to other religions and cultures. It never assimilates, it simply overwhelms. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.
So the Muslims who have been living and practicing their religion peacefully for decades in my hometown (Greater Seattle area) must be mythical creatures?
Huh? Could you clarify as I don't understand your question.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:37 pm
Greetings Paul,
paul wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 pm
These alarmist posts display a reactive response fixed on a view from the past “sensing no change in the changing” (AN 4:49) , and indicate a general inability to detect impermanence. This is one of the perversions (vipallasa). “ The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention, it is concealed by continuity,” (Vism. XXI, 3). The remedy for this is the contemplation of the cycle of impermanence in materiality, particularly in nature and in the human body (both internally and externally), bearing in mind that the primal tendency is towards the ‘ripe’ section of the cycle, so this must be countered by intentionally focusing on the dissolution phase, i.e. ageing, sickness and death.
Just curious... would you apply the same kind of dismissive logic to climate change, mass poverty, mass starvation, world wars etc.?

I would suggest that not conflating the two lokas (i.e. loka of the six sense spheres, and the loka which signifies the world in general) might lead to more consistency in these matters.

Metta,
Paul. :)
This post is not a reply to retrofuturist.
I don't know what paul would do but I would apply the same kind of logic to all those social issues. I wouldn't call the logic dismissive.....it is how one grasps the results of having applied the logic which contains the opportunity to be dismissive. It seems that when retrofuturist grasps the logic he becomes dismissive so he rejects the logic. Others grasp the logic as a first step in understanding the way things really are and as a starting point for determining a path which might lead out of the dilemma.

I don't think the buddha teaches two lokas.
chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am
Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am
pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am
The conversation here is probably similar to the conversations in the courtyards around Borobudur in Indonesia 700 years ago when the local Hindus and Buddhists noticed the large numbers of Arab traders in their midst. The nature of Islam is that it restricts conversion to other religions and cultures. It never assimilates, it simply overwhelms. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.
So the Muslims who have been living and practicing their religion peacefully for decades in my hometown (Greater Seattle area) must be mythical creatures?
Huh? Could you clarify as I don't understand your question.
I think that garrib is saying that alot of muslims actually do assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa and ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated. Mosly you would never know that they were muslims.....and most of them were immigrants.
chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 am
It seems that when retrofuturist grasps the logic he becomes dismissive so he rejects the logic.
:offtopic:

It seems chownah ought to speak for himself, rather than spilling even more of his erroneous conjecture all over the place. Chownah should ask if unsure, as this would be preferable to more rampant speculation which has no founding whatsoever in reality.

:roll:
chownah wrote:I don't think the buddha teaches two lokas.
He does. The two main senses of loka are played at in the following riddle from the Samyutta Nikaya...
SN 35.116 wrote:‘Bhikkhus, I say that the end of the world cannot be known, seen, or reached by travelling. Yet, bhikkhus, I also say that without reaching the end of the world there is no making an end to suffering,’
...where "the world" is initially regarded in the conventional sense...
Loka [cp. Vedic loka in its oldest meaning "space, open space." For etym. see rocati. To the etym. feeling of the Pāli hearer loka is closely related in quality to ruppati (as in pop. etym. of rūpa) and rujati. As regards the latter the etym. runs "lujjati kho loko ti vuccati" S iv.52, cp. Nd2 550, and loka=lujjana DhsA 47, 308: see lujjana. The Dhtp 531 gives root lok (loc) in sense of dassana] world, primarily "visible world," then in general as "space or sphere of creation," with var. degrees of substantiality. Often (unspecified) in the comprehensive sense of "universe." Sometimes the term is applied collectively to the creatures inhabiting this or var. other worlds, thus, "man, mankind, people, beings." -- Loka is not a fixed & def. term. It comprises immateriality as well as materiality and emphasizes either one or the other meaning according to the view applied to the object or category in question. Thus a trsln of "sphere, plane, division, order" interchanges with "world." Whenever the spatial element prevails we speak of its "regional" meaning as contrasted with "applied" meaning. The fundamental notion however is that of substantiality, to which is closely related the specific Buddhist notion of impermanence (loka=lujjati). -- 1. Universe: the distinctions between the universe (cp. cakkavāḷa) as a larger whole and the world as a smaller unit are fluctuating & not definite. A somewhat wider sphere is perhaps indicated by sabba -- loka (e. g. S i.12; iv.127, 312; v.132; It 122; Mhvs 1, 44; cp. sabbāvanta loka D i.251; iii.224), otherwise even the smaller loka comprises var. realms of creation. Another larger division is that of loka as sadevaka, samāraka, sabrahmaka, or the world with its devas, its Māra and its Brahmā, e. g. S i.160, 168, 207; ii.170; iii.28, 59; iv.158; v.204; A i.259 sq.; ii.24 sq.; iii.341; iv.56, 173; v.50; It 121; Nd1 447 (on Sn 956), to which is usually added sassamaṇa -- brāhmaṇī pajā (e. g. D i.250, see loci s. v. pajā). With this cp. Dh 45, where the divisions are paṭhavī, Yamaloka, sadevaka (loka), which are expld at DhA i.334 by paṭhavī=attabhāva; Yamaloka=catubbidha apāyaloka; sadevaka=manussaloka devalokena saddhiŋ. -- The universe has its evolutional periods: saŋvaṭṭati and vivaṭṭati D ii.109 sq. The Buddha has mastered it by his enlightenment: loko Tathāgatena abhisambuddho It 121. On loka, lokadhātu (=cosmos) and cakkavāḷa cp. Kirfel, Kosmographie p. 180, 181. <-> 2. Regional meaning. -- (a) in general. Referring to this world, the character of evanescence is inherent in it; referring to the universe in a wider sense, it implies infinity, though not in definite terms. There is mention of the different metaphysical theories as regards cosmogony at many places of the Canon.

(Source)
... and also in what the same Pali dictionary refers to as "loka" in the logic (vinaya) of the ariyā"
SN 35.116 wrote:That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. And what, friends, is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world? The eye is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world . The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world. That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.
Both uses are found in the Pali Canon, and which one is to be applied in any given translation is usually evident from the context in which the term is used. To conflate both the aryan and conventional usages and imagine them to be one and the same is to mistake and/or misrepresent the Buddha's teaching, by effectively conflating the putthujana-eye with the dhamma-eye. Both eyes can be used, depending on the situation and type of investigation and analysis being done, but not when one is confounded as to which is being used. Hence my succinct note that triggered Chownah's conceptual proliferation...
Just curious... would you apply the same kind of dismissive logic to climate change, mass poverty, mass starvation, world wars etc.?

I would suggest that not conflating the two lokas (i.e. loka of the six sense spheres, and the loka which signifies the world in general) might lead to more consistency in these matters.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...muslims actually do assimilate.... ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated....
What does this supposed to mean? Did those Muslims change drastically somehow from what they previously were? Did they change their names from Mustafa to Maxwell?
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa ...
So was not changing your name from 'Chownah' to 'Chuck' an example of non-assimilation? ;)
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 pm
Yes, that's right. It does not alter the reality that fringe alt-right political views are crap. I am surprised to encounter, for the first time, someone whom I regard as intelligent, but who believes this alt-right nonsense and accepts ridiculous views espoused by the likes of Alex Jones. I suppose having a political disagreement is, in your view, not treating others with dignity and respect?
Exactly who was being refereed to above as "intelligent"? Noam Chomsky or myself? As for the alt-right, they have their grievances, which a good Buddhist considers, just as a good Buddhist considers the grievances of Transfolk. As for Alex Jones, I don't follow him. As for George Soros, people judge him according his actions. As for Obama & Hillary, they arranged the murder of lots of people; just as Bush & Cheney.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Garrib » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...muslims actually do assimilate.... ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated....
What does this supposed to mean? Did those Muslims change drastically somehow from what they previously were? Did they change their names from Mustafa to Maxwell?
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa ...
So was not changing your name from 'Chownah' to 'Chuck' an example of non-assimilation? ;)
Yes, many of them changed a great deal - started speaking English, wearing more westernized clothing styles, kids play in western bands, play on the football team, go to school with and hang out with non-muslim friends etc...

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:49 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am
Yes, many of them changed a great deal - started speaking English, wearing more westernized clothing styles, kids play in western bands, play on the football team, go to school with and hang out with non-muslim friends etc..
Most of the above sounds quite materialistic. For example, if they started doing drugs, drinking alcohol & having random sex with non-Muslims, they probably ceased to be 'Muslims'. I suppose I am also asking what exactly is the 'Western culture' they are assimilating to?
Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am
This is a huge red flag - I infer that whoever made the video has a childishly simplistic understanding of the world in general, and is very like a racist (such characteristics go very well together). What do you think?
I think the same about the video despite the video having some valid concerns because many violent Middle-Eastern & African men were allowed into Europe (which for me is not related to Islam but to another agenda). The video seems to blame Islam for certain problems. Retrofuturist seems to blame George Soros for those same problems. I like to blame Obama & Hillary for those problems. I think the point is there is a growing problem in Europe & it is important to recognise there is a problem then try to discover the causes.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 am
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 am
It seems that when retrofuturist grasps the logic he becomes dismissive so he rejects the logic.
It seems chownah ought to speak for himself, rather than spilling even more of his erroneous conjecture all over the place. Chownah should ask if unsure, as this would be preferable to more rampant speculation which has no founding whatsoever in reality.
I said that "it seems" because I AM speaking for myself so there is no reason to say I "ought" to speak for myself.

It seems to me that you do not apply that logic to those issues. Do you apply that logic to those issues? Do you apply that logic (which you call "dismissive logic") at all?

If you were to grasp that logic would you become dismissive?....if not then why did you label it "dismissive" logic.....there is nothing in and of itself in that logic which can be called dismissive....logic is not dismissive, people are dismissive.

Also, you have completely ignored my main point which is "Others grasp the logic as a first step in understanding the way things really are and as a starting point for determining a path which might lead out of the dilemma." Instead you berate me for being mistaken in interpreting your position....without even a pretense of trying to better inform me. Quibble.

So, I invite you to respond to the idea that this kind of logic need not be dismissive at all but can be a first step in understanding the way things really are and as a starting point for determining a path which might lead out of the dilemma.
chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:21 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am
Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am


So the Muslims who have been living and practicing their religion peacefully for decades in my hometown (Greater Seattle area) must be mythical creatures?
Huh? Could you clarify as I don't understand your question.
I think that garrib is saying that alot of muslims actually do assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa and ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated. Mosly you would never know that they were muslims.....and most of them were immigrants.
chownah
I think the USA is a bit different than Europe with regards to Muslim immigrant assimilation. What we haven't heard anything from are Europeans that are currently living amongst large Muslim populations and how they see the assimilation over decades taking place. Most of the French people I know say the situation is out of hand there. The finger gets pointed both ways, at the government for not doing enough, and the Muslims for not doing enough. Meanwhile, the population is growing with no real change in attitudes and assimilation. World migration has its problems. The force of it knows no philosophy except survival. When there is enough food on the table, there begins another kind of hurdle, belief systems. This doesn't seem to change very easily. It's the strengthening of these belief systems that get put into place by the religious leaders, politicians, and the street. On that level, nothing much has changed in history. The Crusades are still being fought 1000 years later. The dormant period is over. How are people going to get over their beliefs, their conditioning? They haven't shown much proclivity for doing this. Most tolerance is force fed through rhetoric. Each person must throw off the burden of the past and their culture to be truly tolerant. What are the odds of that happening? :shrug:

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