Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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L.N.
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by L.N. » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 pm
Yes, that's right. It does not alter the reality that fringe alt-right political views are crap. I am surprised to encounter, for the first time, someone whom I regard as intelligent, but who believes this alt-right nonsense and accepts ridiculous views espoused by the likes of Alex Jones. I suppose having a political disagreement is, in your view, not treating others with dignity and respect?
Exactly who was being refereed to above as "intelligent"? Noam Chomsky or myself? As for the alt-right, they have their grievances, which a good Buddhist considers, just as a good Buddhist considers the grievances of Transfolk. As for Alex Jones, I don't follow him. As for George Soros, people judge him according his actions. As for Obama & Hillary, they arranged the murder of lots of people; just as Bush & Cheney.
I was actually referring to the post by retrofuturist regarding Soros (third post from the top), but you are correct, my manner of speaking was not as kind as it could have been, and I apologize.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Saengnapha
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:54 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:46 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:21 am
I think the USA is a bit different than Europe with regards to Muslim immigrant assimilation.
Absolutely. I was only responding to the mistaken assertion that muslims NEVER assimilate. I think that the american experience is that alot of muslims do assimilate.

It might be that america has a history of assimilating immigrants while europe does not.
It might be that american culture emerged without close powerful neighbors so there was not need to be so assertive about culture to maintain boundaries while europe has been a politically overcrowded neighborhood for hundreds of years; cultural imperatives arose as a natural method to enforce boundaries.
It might be that the concentration of muslims in the usa is very low compared to europe.

I think that unless europeans start having more babies it is inevitable that eventually the cultures there will change alot because I don't think that assimilation of large numbers will happen fast enough to maintain the cultural status quo (as if culture was static at all). Think of how american culture has impacted europe even though there hasn't really been much american immigration there.....france fights to keep americanisms out of the language, blues and jazz, movies, etc........what about the internet and its effects on culture?.....going to ban the internet to maintain purity of culture?
chownah
I don't know what ethnicity you are, but I grew up in America, white. All the ethnicities lived in their own ghetto, including the white Euro immigrants, Irish, Polish, Italian, etc. All fought with each other, and no one really trusted anyone outside of their 'tribe'. This still goes on to some degree today even though there is a strong liberal ideology running through America. Just ask some black people, or latino, Asians, Jews. Put a different religion and clothing on someone with a different skin color, and you are not really assimilated into American culture, whatever the hell that is. There may be some exceptions, but generally speaking, this is not the way America is. You have to fight to get things. Push your way into the fray in many cases. Bend to the will of someone else. Respect is something that doesn't come naturally to Americans. They are not taught this. Their history is about using violence to establish their white, Christian, way of life. The business model has the same attitude of power.

Go to Native American areas of America and tell me how well they have been assimilated. This is not really understood within America. It is dominated by far right Christian idealism, a doped up, pharmaceutically intoxicated free market mentality that relies on bullying and accumulating all they can, and a pop culture that is based on pure fantasy. It is a sick way of life and getting worse. I'm not saying every one is like this, but it is the overriding factors of this that control the life there. Racism is rampant.

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 am

Saengnapha,
I think that your ideas about what it means for someone to be assimilated and my ideas on it are very different. Also, our experiences in america are very different.
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am

Re cartoon video page 1
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 pm

I had my concerns whether this is typical right wing propaganda.
Seems like fairly typical right wing propaganda to me.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 pm
But it is actually seeing the actual reality of what will become of the future if people keep turning a blind eye.
No it isn't. At best that is an opinion.

Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:11 am

Five steps to stop Islamic terrorism in Europe.

I cant say I agree with all these points but it is interesting that this article was written by an ex-muslim

http://www.faithfreedom.org/five-steps- ... terrorism/

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:17 am

"What Moderate Muslims?" article by ex-muslim author Ali Sina (author of Understanding Muhammad and Muslims)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/what-moderate-muslims/

"The Myth of Peaceful and Moderate Muslims" by Sujit Das (author of Islam Dismantled: The Mental Illness of Prophet Muhammad)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-myth-of ... e-muslims/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 am

Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am
Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?
""So, someone thought it would be a great idea to bring in millions of Muslims from the Third World into Europe".

Factually correct.

Hillary Clinton embraces George Soros’ ‘radical’ vision of open-border world
Open borders

Mr. Soros has complained of national borders as an impediment to world ruling bodies.

He finances at least seven groups in the U.S. that promote open borders and mass immigration, according to the book “Shadow Party” by David Horowitz and Richard Poe.

WikiLeaks’ massive release of hacked campaign emails shows that in one of Mrs. Clinton’s paid speeches to bankers, she pledged to work for open borders. Her “dream” presumedly means that the southern U.S. border would be a conduit for untold numbers of immigrants.

“My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders,” she told a closed-door audience at Brazilian bank Banco Tau in May 2013.

Illustrating how far Mrs. Clinton has moved to the Soros position is a 2003 statement in which she said she was “adamantly opposed to illegal immigrants.”

Conservative bloggers say one of Mr. Podesta’s emails shows him explaining how illegal immigrants can vote by obtaining driver’s licenses and attesting to U.S. citizenship at the polls. Noncitizen voting in federal elections is against U.S. law.

Muslim immigration

Mr. Soros is a big proponent of bringing more Muslims into Europe and, by extension, to America. He views Muslim immigrants as a savior for Europe because of the continent’s low birthrate.

He has funded private groups helping Muslims enter Germany and other countries, and he wants Europe to borrow billions of dollars to pay for resettling them. He wrote in the Australian newspaper last year that Europe should bring in 1 million Muslim refugees per year “for the foreseeable future.”

Hungary built walls to keep out Middle Eastern refugees, fearing they would turn the country from its “Christian roots” into an Islamic state.

“This invasion is driven, on the one hand, by people smugglers, and on the other by [human rights] activists who support everything that weakens the nation-state,” said Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. “This Western mindset and this activist network is perhaps best represented by George Soros.”

Mr. Soros told Bloomberg News: “Our plan treats the protection of refugees as the objective and national borders as the obstacle.”

Mrs. Clinton said on CBS’ “Face the Nation” that she wants to boost President Obama’s mark of 10,000 Syrian refugees resettled in the U.S. in one year to 65,000 — a 500 percent increase.


Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:45 am

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am

Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?
The sentence is "So, someone thought it would be a great idea to bring in millions of Muslims from the Third World into Europe". I would say that it is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Certainly, some people have thought that it would be a great idea; that includes some Muslim radicals and some Europeans open to accepting mass immigration. On the other hand, they are largely insignificant, and the implication that there is one influential person who made the decision to bring Muslims in is unfounded. But there have clearly been many people whose policies and practices and ideologies have led to there being millions of Muslims from the Third World in Europe. There are currently about 27 million Muslims in Europe, and (depending on definitions one uses) many of them originated in the Third World. So it could be said that many people were OK with that numbers of Muslims, or had no thought for the consequences of their policies, practices, and ideologies.

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Kusala
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Kusala » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:53 am

paul wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 pm
:goodpost:
alfa wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:48 pm
Everything changes, becomes something else. This is Buddhism 101.

Nothing stays the same - not the individual, not things, certainly not countries and cultures.

Society is not some fixed, static thing. Not a stone but a river.

People are being alarmist with respect to what is really a natural phenomenon.
These alarmist posts display a reactive response fixed on a view from the past “sensing no change in the changing” (AN 4:49) , and indicate a general inability to detect impermanence. This is one of the perversions (vipallasa). “ The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention, it is concealed by continuity,” (Vism. XXI, 3). The remedy for this is the contemplation of the cycle of impermanence in materiality, particularly in nature and in the human body (both internally and externally), bearing in mind that the primal tendency is towards the ‘ripe’ section of the cycle, so this must be countered by intentionally focusing on the dissolution phase, i.e. ageing, sickness and death. The cycle is slow in materiality and quick in mentality, that's why it's preferable to focus on materiality, and why the first foundation of mindfulness is the body (meaning materiality generally).

Dalai Lama: Germany cannot become an Arab country

https://www.politico.eu/article/dalai-l ... s-muslims/

Image
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"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
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Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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robertk
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by robertk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:48 am

Living in the Gulf and having many Arab friends I have to say, by and large, I find their sensibilities, humor, and way of doing things pretty much in tune with mine.

Abortion is illegal, they are respectful of women, travel incessantly, love big cars, donate to the poor, have lovely manners reminiscient of an older time, and almost idolize America. In fact they are close in many ways to conservative Americans in thinking.

Immgration is practically non- existent, which is a pity but then again it does have huge advantages for the indigenous population.

Freedom of press is much less than in the West but nothing like the rigidly controlled press in Buddhist Thailand: where linking to a BBC article has put a man in jail. And where a historian is under investigation for casting doubt on a King's heroics ( that happened 400 years ago).

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:24 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:48 am
Living in the Gulf and having many Arab friends I have to say, by and large, I find their sensibilities, humor, and way of doing things pretty much in tune with mine.

Abortion is illegal, they are respectful of women, travel incessantly, love big cars, donate to the poor, have lovely manners reminiscient of an older time, and almost idolize America. In fact they are close in many ways to conservative Americans in thinking.

Immgration is practically non- existent, which is a pity but then again it does have huge advantages for the indigenous population.

Freedom of press is much less than in the West but nothing like the rigidly controlled press in Buddhist Thailand: where linking to a BBC article has put a man in jail. And where a historian is under investigation for casting doubt on a King's heroics ( that happened 400 years ago).
You make some extremely welcome points which I have also found to be true, both when I was living in the Middle East, and also of Muslims here in my country. There are some people who are concerned about Islamic immigration because they simply don't like to be around those with a different culture. But there are also those who value individuals from various minority cultures as friends and fellow-citizens, yet are still rightly concerned about the effects of large-scale migration upon their own country, culture, and environment. I put myself in this latter category. I think it would be extremely reckless for the UK to allow current levels of immigration, as it would cause damage to the environment and possible structural economic problems in the future. Other things being equal, I would on environmental and economic grounds be happy for an influx of people with a different culture to occur, providing a similar number of indigenous Brits leave; we would have sustainable net migration levels. In addition, though, I also think I need to take into account the feelings of my compatriots who don't want to live near Muslims or other minorities. I might not share their views, but I wouldn't discount them.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:19 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 am
Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am
Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?
""So, someone thought it would be a great idea to bring in millions of Muslims from the Third World into Europe".

Factually correct.

Hi Paul
So you think the video was referring to George Soros and he has been responsible for bringing millions of Muslims from the Third World into Europe. And every so often, from within those communities that George Soros brought into Europe, someone comes forward to kill innocent Europeans. Okay.

The Farage video seems totally off topic. Maybe you need to start a new topic for Soros intrigue.

chownah
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:54 pm

According to http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... in-europe/:
Between mid-2010 and mid-2016,
1. An estimated 2.5 million Muslims came to Europe for reasons other than seeking asylum, such as for employment or to go to school.
2. About 1.3 million more Muslims received (or are expected to receive) refugee status, allowing them to remain in Europe.
3. Among European Muslims, there were 2.9 million more births than deaths.
4. The average Muslim woman in Europe is expected to have 2.6 children, a full child more than the average non-Muslim woman (1.6 children).

So.....the number of muslim immigrants entering europe for employment or education was almost twice the number of refugees in that period.

So.....it seems that the increase of the muslim population caused by births in excess of deaths was increasing the muslim population at twice the rate that refugees were increasing the population.

And....it seems that even if ALL muslim immigration stops completely the muslim population will increase at a much faster rate than the non-muslim population if the birth statistics for that period characterize what will happen in the future.

chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by L.N. » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am
Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?
""So, someone thought it would be a great idea to bring in millions of Muslims from the Third World into Europe".

Factually correct.

Hillary Clinton embraces George Soros’ ‘radical’ vision of open-border world

...
Factually incorrect. The quoted article from the conservative Washington Times is an opinion piece, not intended to be an unbiased news report. Vilifying George Soros is a hallmark of the alt-right movement.
Read this article if interested. From the article:
The Australian Conservatives are just the latest group to invoke the figure of George Soros as the shadowy string-puller behind the fight for marriage equality.

Sifting through the lurid Islamophobic and homophobic images on the group’s car crash of a Facebook page, you can find a meme urging the group’s supporters to “Stop the Globalist Agenda: Vote No”.
The backlash to Muslims now is due in part to the upheaval in Syria and surrounding area, which led to a massive exodus of men, women and children (who happen to be Muslims). This social reality was forced upon the world, and some nations were more open to helping the refugees than others. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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retrofuturist
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:13 pm

Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:19 pm
The Farage video seems totally off topic. Maybe you need to start a new topic for Soros intrigue.
It's very much on topic, because it draws attention to how George Soros, through the use of his foundations etc. buys out corrupt politicians in both the U.S. and Europe, and pays them to do his bidding on these matters... including the mass immigration of Muslims into Europe & US.
The [Hungarian] Prime Minister has been vocal that he too thinks that the billionaire has a plan to force Hungary to accept more migrants.

His anger comes despite Mr Soros once funding a scholarship for him in 1989.

Mr Orban’s stance has gone down well with voters, and Fidesz is firmly ahead in opinion polls.

The Hungarian Prime Minister said EU officials will implement the alleged plan because they “eat from Soros’ hand”.

(source)
Meanwhile, in the U.S., courtesy of Wikileaks... (trigger warning: CNN says you're not allowed to read this)

Image

And as per the earlier article, Hillary Clinton's position on immigration radically changed from 2003 to 2013. I wonder why?...

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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